AGC-EEP Portugal and West Africa

Norrefeldt said:

Just noticed the submission.
The two events "Settlement of El Mina/Arguin" do not have any balance between a and b options. I think the b's should be made viable choices compared to the very good a options, or scrapped, since it will only cripple the AI. No human player will ever take them.

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I'm inclined to agree with you, but can't figure out a way to do it and be historical accurate. Feel free to make suggestions if you like. Ideally though we want the AI and a human player to pick action A almost every time. The ducat costs in Actions A are about the most Portugal can afford at their respective times withouttaking a loan. This is thesame reason theevents were placed in January.

Maybe some land tech or infra tech might do the trick. Definitely not troops though, that option on early Portuguese events could mess up the AI too much.

Isaac Brock said:

Under the beta test Portugal can support those ships, although I expect that to change. So I think it's a good idea to ditch them. I'm not so sure that they should get the shipyard that early. mid-late 15th century seems about right to me. Otherwise why not start them with it? Not sure what's a good event for it.

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What exactly is the "Beta Test?"

Ya it's real hard to pinpoint exactly what time Portugal's shipbuilding capicity increased dramatically. The idea of a shipyard is highly subjective anyways. But I think something should represent this for Portugal, especially if Britain and Spain can get shipyards before the tech is available too. Portugal had large fleets in the late 15th century and the early 16th century. My idea with placing it there rather than on a later Henry's captains event was primarily meant to help the AI. A human player playing on the normal level or higher has difficulty spending all of Portugal's colonists anyways. So I figure it's main benefit is to help with support cost. This is somewhat of a problem for Portugal with a weak economy mid-15th century.

Isaac Brock said:

I'd prefer to see them get the shipyard later then 'Henry's Captains'.

The beta test is the test releases that can be downloaded on the main page. Johan has increased ship support limits 5 times or more, so it makes a huge difference.

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I'm open to a later date for the shipyard. What event do you think it should be added to, perhaps one of the later Henry's captains. It certainly should happen earlier than 1500. I'm not saying it has to be alot earlier though.

I'll check out this beta test.

Isaac Brock said:

How about "Royal Charters" in 1469?

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I can and am willing to put it there. What I was thinking with the first Henry's captains though was to try and place it at a time when Portugal decidedly committed to trade/exploration. This event is after Gil Eanes showed that there were people and land below Cape Bojador. Should the later date be favored over this? Royal charters was when the govt. of Portugal took a back seat to west Africa so to speak. Maybe it should be the exploration event just before this one. What do you think?

Isaac Brock said:

I'd prefer to see them get the shipyard later then 'Henry's Captains'.

The beta test is the test releases that can be downloaded on the main page. Johan has increased ship support limits 5 times or more, so it makes a huge difference.

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Ok, I didn't realize you meant the 1.08b lastest patch. i thought you meant something for AGC-EEP.

I do use the latest beta patch.

Let me explain what happens with Portugal in the 15th century with ship support cost. It starts off as 1 ducat monthly if the ships are on the lowest supportable amount. No problem there. But it steadily increases and by 1450 its 2 ducats on the lowest.

The problem is in 1450 Portugal is still poor and so it hurts too much. Human players delete some of the ships, which is just a minor annoyance but ought to be uneccessary. The biggest problem is the AI doesn't and it saps lots of his income, making him spend less on colonization and TPing.

It gets worse from here too as more and more explorers with 3 ships each keep getting added as well a few ships with each of these events. By 1500 at the lowest support level it could be costing 3.5 ducats monthly. And keep in mind that with the DP slider 1 pip from the right of full naval, random events giving extra ships happen often. A human player deletes them almost always but not an AI. Like I said it is primarily an AI problem, but also a problem to a lesser extent for a human Portuguese player. A shipyard instead should help a decent amount.

Isaac Brock said:

Under the betas it won't help because Portugal's supportable limit is 400 ships or so. So adding the shipyard will make no difference. Still 1469 vs 1450 (or whenever) isn't a big deal. Give it to them when you please.

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Ok I think I understand what your saying. Makes sense. Removing the extra ships with those events I think is still worth doing and they will need to recieve a shipyard at some point anyways.

I got almost all of the events and leader additions I was talking about made, so I'll play test it out and I'll be letting you know in the near future in the Indian and Ocean Nations thread how they work out for a human and AI portuguese player.

Norrefeldt said:

The AI will make the 'wrong' decision in 5.6% of the cases, that makes it almost 11% that it will take the b-option in at least one of the events. The player will not, and mostly not even concider it. Still, I think a b-option should be there, since it must have been an opportunity at the time. I also think you are right in that we should not increase the cost, since Portuguese economy is weak.
Here is my suggestion: We should focus more on the direct effect of the event, and remove some of the goodies. Was Nouakshott province ever Portuguese cultured IRL? Building a fort off the cost doesn't sound like such a change in the population as to make it Portuguese.
I also added comments on the triggers to make them readable. Very few ppl here knows the province numbers and has to check them up. Better to do it once and for all when the event is written IMHO.

Code:

#Settlement of El Mina#
event = {
id = 260048
trigger = { 
		owned = { province = 795 data = -1 } #Leone
		control = { province = 795 data = -1 } 
		discovered = 1365 #Ivory Coast
	}
random = no
country = POR
name = "Settlement of El Mina"
desc = "In 1481 King Joao II of Portugal held a meeting with his council to decide whether or not to build a fort on the Mina coast to secure the trade of gold in this region."
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = september year = 1481 }
offset = 60
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 } 
action_a ={ 
name = "build the fort"
command = { type = population which = 795 value = 300 }
command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
command = { type = fortress which = 795 value = 1 }
#command = { type = trade value = 150 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 795 value = catholic }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 795 value = -1 }
#command = { type = mine which = 795 value = 10 }
}
action_b = {
name = "it is too risky"
command = { type = merchants value = 6 }
}
}
#Settlement of Arguin#
event = {
id = 260049
trigger = { 
		owned = { province = 802 data = -1 } #Nouakchott
		control = { province = 802 data = -1 } 
		discovered = 1056 #Mauretanian Coast
	}
random = no
country = POR
name = "Settlement of Arguin"
desc = "In 1443 the Portuguese discovered a small island off the African coast and shortly thereafter built a fort there to divert some of the trans-Saharan trade into Portuguese hands."
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1443 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 } 
action_a ={ 
name = "build the fort"
command = { type = population which = 802 value = 200 }
command = { type = treasury value = -50 }
command = { type = fortress which = 802 value = 1 }
#command = { type = trade value = 100 }
#command = { type = provincereligion which = 802 value = catholic }
#command = { type = provinceculture which = 802 value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = "the Moors there might not trade with us"
command = { type = merchants value = 4 }
}

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You misunderstand the reason for the culture/religion changes. They are not for your benefit as a portguese human player. They are there to help the AI. Removing them will change nothing for a human Portguese player but cripples a portguese AI player. I'll explain why.

When the AI chooses where to colonize it looks at percentage chance for success. When a province doesn't have the same religion/culture it has additional penalties and consequently the AI is less likely to pick these 2 historic sites for colonization. Instead it will jsut massacre natives and pick 1 of the west african provinces to dump colonists into and ignore Nouachkott and Leone. This is what we don't want to happen. With the event giving the culture change and religion change along with the small population increases, the AI will then target these 2 provinces for colonization over the others.

Preventing the religion and culture change from happening is an exercise in futility anyways as soon as 100 settlers are established the culture and religion of the province change permanantly for the rest of the game. This is why when you as a player get 1 successful colonization attempt off, the cost and percantage for colonization improve dramatically(read the colonization FAQ). By removing this from the event you are just making the Portguese AI fully colonize these 2 provinces at a much later date. So anotherwords it is impossible for you to stop these changes. You can only delay the AI from making them himself but not stop it. I put them there to help the AI. I playtested this pretty thoroughly.

I'll edit my post in the submissions thread and add a little infra and land tech to both the B options of the events. Ok?

Norrefeldt said:

Have you read the first post in the submissions thread?
We welcome all your ideas and efforts of course. But to make things run smooth and to make sure only finished things are implemented we have some rules for the submissions:

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I have. Have you read the extensive discussion on Portugal and west Africa changes that are located in the Portgual and Indian Ocean nations thread? I posted a summary of my proposed changes in the Portgual and West Africa thread after this had occurred. To the best of my knowledge I have obeyed all the submission thread rules.

Arguin was a trading fort. But it was fortified not just a TP. It was fortified so that the Portguese could not be forced to leave easily. TPs without forts are for the most part ahistorical. Consequently its a losing situation all around. I figured a colony with 200 something pop would be a compromise closer to the truth.

The reason why Portugal should get these little helps is becasue it doesn't do any where near what it is supposed to, and so much later history is dependant on its accomplishing historical objectives.

Look if your premise is the game needs to be as uniform as possible and history will just have to be less a part of the game. Then the event is unjustified. But if this is the case then get rid of the 50 pop that starts on the Azores and the Cape Verde Islands. These are ahistorical setups too. They are only there to help the AI.

I am not opposed to special AI helps for other countries. Am I in the minority on this point? The game has many limitations. I am just making suggestions to get around them as much as possible.

Norrefeldt said:

I didn't misunderstand the reason for these changes, but I think they are ahistorical and unjustified, that's why I didn't like it. The reason is that the whole chunk of that province didn't become Portuguese and Christian over night and also because of a severe lack of consistency. You want to use this as a help for Portugal to colonize this particular province, I understand that much. Why should only Portugal get this help, why not all other states in their respective historical areas?

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I actually agree with evreything you say here 100%. That is not the problem. The problem is that other more important things come into play. I strongly reccommend that you read the dialogue between Isaac Brock, Yakman, and myself in the Portugal and Indian Ocean thread before you respond to this post. I addressed many of your quite valid concerns there and quite alot of debate on this subject has occured before I put this in the submissions thread. It is not my fault if you didn't participate. I am not trying to make suggestions that I make put to a vote asap. I like to test my views vs others before this so as not to waste time.

Norrefeldt said:

And, then one might ask, if you play any other state and put up a TP in Nouakshott, why shouldn't you get the same treatment? Was there something special about the Portuguese colonisation here that made this happen?

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TPs will trigger the event however pop increases and fortifiaction increases will then not occur. This is why I suggested 35 pop. This way the event will be triggered unless a native uprising occurs prior to it, which does happen occasionally.

Other states may not have fortified that spot. It was used to divert some of the trans-saharan trade into portuguese hands. Mostly a non-issue for later arrivals.

Norrefeldt said:

If there wasn't anything special going on, and from the description of the event it seems it wasn't, then there should be no special treatment. Portugal has the ToT as hardcoded special treatment, that should be enough.

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Unfortunately for an AI Portuguese it's not. I've become an avid AI watcher recently. I been playing Ternate, doing nothing with it of course, and just watching what the AI does, especially with Portugal. And the AI doesn't accomplish anywhere near what Portugal should be doing. A very far cry from what a human player can do.

Norrefeldt said:

I might use this opportunity to ask you when Nouakshott was fully colonised, since you seem to know more than I do. I understand there were merchants present, but when did Portuguese colonial cities begin to emerge? When can we concider it historically Portuguese and Christian (like Brasilian provinces)?

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It was a trading fort. It had a garrison and a fort. It was however considered a sweet spot to be governor of. This particular province provides a low pop growth rate. Even if fully colonized early it is surpassed in pop size by many colonies no problem. The natives living near by were vassals to the king of Portugal and payed tribute in fish. This often ended up being what they ate. The Portuguese of course would not hesitate to cohabitate with local women. This ledto a mulatto population too, not just here but all along the West African Coast. ANd thye called themselves Christians and considered themselves as subjects of the king of Portugal. The reason why I never reccommnded the province commodity be changed to fish is because slaves were the most profitable commodity here and I'm assuming they came from the terra incognita just to the right of this province. Much of the local population was Christian long before the Portguese arrived in India.

I recommend that you read my post on my interpretation of colonies and TPs before responding to this post(post #67 Portugal and Indian Ocean nations thread). I am extremely eager to debate this very subject because of its being quite difficult at times to interpret historical colonial establishments into 1 of these 2 categories and also because the manual description is incredibly vague. I recommend you read that too before responding to this post as well.

Norrefeldt said:

PS. Whatever you do, please include my commented triggers. There might be other people who wants to read and understand the events in the future, then it's a great aid.

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I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean here. Could you please explain a little more thoroughly what you're asking me to do here?

And I would like to point out that the information I'm getting for the west African event proposals don't come from the internet, they come form source documents and the introductions written by the editors/translators of these. So if more precise information is desired or even quotes, then please just let me know and I'll provide them.

A few suggestions about Portuguese setup.

I've recently gotten a book from the library on the Azores. It gives a real good description of its exploration and settlement. There has been a controversy in the past over who the discoveror of the Azores was. Some said Diogo Silves some said Goncalo Velho. But this book gives a real good description of why there was this controversy. All this information comes from 1 source, an old map that was badly worn but said who discovered the Azores and of course shows the Azores on the map. Apparrently when this map was studied, earlier scholars misread the name Goncalo Velho as Diogo Silves, or some other name similar to this. More recent scholars have compared the style of writing to other written documents of the time and have debunked this misinterpretation. The exact same thing happened with the date. The earlier scholars thought 1427, which is diogo Silves' arrival date in the game. But it was really 1432 and this is confirmed by many circumstances as well as the fact that no other documants say anything about the Azores before 1432.

Because of this I recommend that Diogo Silves' name be changed to Goncalo Velho and he should appear at 1432 not 1427. He lived a long time but for gameplay reasons I recommend he live only 3 years. He could even appear in the Azores for historical value. This will stop dumb human Portuguese ahistorical exploration leading to ahistorical early colonization and TPing of west Africa too.

I tried to find information on Fernando Castro, which is a conquistador that Portugal gets in 1425 and does all kinds of ahistorical crap with. All I could find was this=
http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/1492/chronology.htm

If anybody knows if he did anything else besides attack the Canaries please let me know.

If indeed this is all he did then conquistador status is unjustified, because the Canaries were already well known by many european and north african nations well before 1419. General status would be approriate but he's such a minor character to warrant that and Pereira and the Infantes are alive at the same time and are better statswise.

Therefore I recommend he be removed from the game as he's undoubltely the least worthy of leader status out of all the Portuguese leaders in the game and because he makes too much ahistorical gameplay, by giving colonization bonuses in west african provinces. Besides the AI just lets him die in Portugal anyways.

Another change I recommend: Give Portugal level 1 infra tech level at the beginning of the game, and take away the 70 value too of course.

This will help a human Portuguese player to a trivial degree but considering if my 2 suggestions on top of this are implemented,this would then be fair.

The primary reason why Portugal should get this change is for the AI of course. This would help the AI alot and I'll explain why.

When Portugal begins it is at war with Morocco. It gets Infra 1 in 2 years or so but will then not make baliffs because the AI makes troop construction a priority because of the war. In fact even if the war ends prior to this it still causes problems because the AI almost always has spent all it's money during the war.

Portugal not making Baliffs at the beiggining of the game cripples the Portuguese AI tremendously and heres why. If Portugal ends its Moroccan war the AI can then spend money on other things but the problem is it has a big army and no baliffs so its annual income is pretty low(no census tax) and it wastes much of the rest of its income on troop support. This makes the Portuguese AI not have any spare money for a long time. I have even seen it make its first baliff about 10 years into the game and not have 1,000 pop on the Azores either. It's flat broke all this time and racking up inflation.

I gave the Portguese AI level 1 infra tech at the beggining of the game to see what it does. And even though its at war it builds 3 baliffs right away in its mainland provinces. This gives 2 excellent benefits to a Portuguese AI, census tax right away and smaller army, so less support cost till its next war. This gives it a big head start and human Portguese players avoid this financial trap everytime anyways.

Norrefeldt said:

Why? There were no Portuguese there AFAIK in 1419.

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And there are none there at the beggining of the game either. Those 2 provinces start off with nonportuguese cultures.