Chinese Cheese - A Ming AAR

anweRU said:

I learned a lot from your There Must be Order AAR, even though I didn't start reading it until you finished. I'll be following this one .

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I can't guarantee you'll learn anything new here - I'm not that good a player. Hope you'll still enjoy this AAR, though.

TonyJoe said:

Thanks for the info on the Oriate Horde trick. That could be really powerful given the requirement to stay below the BB max.

So you're not a European nation with euro troops but you do have a far larger population base and will no doubt soon westernize. What do you think your chances are of attaining WC in this game?

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As you might note, I've not put a BadBoy requirement this time - and that mission is precisely why. It would be meaningless, since I'm guaranteed a 'clean sweep' every few years. At worst, my max limit is 13 points (Very Hard, Dip 3 monarch), and I do not plan to cross that threshold, ever - but with the Oirat mission, that's no real achievement.

I believe my chances of a complete WC are fair, indeed. Though my units will be inferior, I'll be able to drown them in numbers. It might be a series of long and bloody struggles, but it should be possible. The uncertainty element is how fast the New World is colonized, and how fast the major players in Europe blobs.

whitesoxfan said:

I suggested Golden Horde, but oh well. Looks like you're not worrying about the bad boy limit here, which changes things. Too bad you won't get a monopoly on the Americas. If you could get to the Iroquois or Huron, though that could results in the conversion of the new world.

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The Golden Horde strikes me as a little too painful, to be honest.

Indeed, being able to forget about BadBoy changes things considerably.

As for the Americas... that depends entirely on luck, actually. Certainly, the New World pagans will help towards cultural expansion there, since Chihan culture is not part of the 'use colonists to swap colonial culture' decision in my version of the game. Pity, used to love converting India to English culture, and suchlike.

sprites said:

good to see a new AAR ^^
lucky timurids? at least you'll have some decent opposition before europe

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The Timurids will be a major obstacle, that is true. They'll reform easily, and then eat every other nation in the region. It'll be a race for India and the steppes.

Kolibrii said:

Hehe i am in China atm so ofc i will be following this >D

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Hope the AAR will be to your liking.

Delex said:

Why did you vassalise Ryuku?

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As was mentioned earlier in the thread - My hope for Ryukyu is that I can sell them certain island provinces, and that they will convert those to animism. That is the only way I can change the culture of various islands, short of moving my capitol there and hoping the cultural assimilation event strikes way sooner than 200 years.

I've no idea if this gambit will work, though. Never seen a Pagan missionary in the game before.

spock2 said:

i cant see pictures

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Hrm... That's strange. I'm using a pro account on Photobucket, so there should be no bandwidth issues. Are you behind a service that blocks Photobucket? Some workplace filters like WebSense might do that.

Being a diplomat, Yongle I issues a decree of peace towards Dai Viet, and again seeks to improve the ever-deteriorating relationships with the Oirats. Fresh dumplings are sent north by the cartload.


Feeding the Oirats does pay off, and all Chinese feel better about themselves - and those abroad feel better about us, too. This leads Yongle I to reconsider the future of Dai Viet.


First, however, Ming must again come to the defense of Arakan. On May 9th, 1411, Orissa tries to meddle in what is clearly Ming's sphere of influence. These Indians must be taught a lesson... as soon as we find out where they live, that is.


From Lanzhou comes ill tidings. The local commander has grossly neglected his duties, and the fortifications there are crumbling. The Emperor issues orders to repair the fortification, increasing our Defensive stand.


There is no helping it - Dai Viet must be under direct Ming rule, if our nation is to flourish. War is declared on July 1st, 1411.


Yongle I also reforms the government, bringing more power to the throne. The nobility objects furiously, and it will take some time to stabilize the situation again.


Sadly, that marks the end of Yongle I's achievements and life. Murmurs of poisoned dumplings abound, but no proof is brought forth. A pragmatist, Emperor Biao I hushes away the passing of his predecessor, and calls for order.


Peasants again flock to the palace, begging the Emperor for more freedoms. Though there is some grumbling at the court, Biao I approves of the petition, knowing more freedom might increase the advancement of all China.


It is too soon to completely destroy Taungu - we do not want our reputation too high, too fast. While we are large, rich and powerful, we cannot yet handle wars on all our fronts.


Nobles discontent with Biao I's complacent attitude towards the peasantry sparks a revolt in Kachin. However, the time for compromises has passed. This decision is made easy by the nearby loyal armies. The uprising is crushed without mercy.


However, to the south, a much larger uprising threatens to break out. This could hamper the war effort considerably. Biao I relents, for now.


We'd like a port further south, and Khmer is kind enough to provide one.


Champa is also reduced. In the long term, we shall have a land connection along the coast.


As part of that plan, Dai Viet is eliminated entirely.


The army rejoices, as does the peasantry. China is thus calmed, and as stable as can be. However, the Oirats are no longer impressed by shipments of dumplings. Biao I decides to circumvent his father's orders regarding imperial cuisine, and the best noodle chef at the court is sent north. As he'll make the noodles there, the old decree remains unbroken.


Sukhothai, a peaceful nation on our southern border, comes under attack. Their ambassador pleads the Emperor for assistance, and Biao I graciously offer it. On May 18th, 1413, Ming comes to Sukhothai's defence.


Unfortunately, the move order to the troops does not reach them in time - at least that is the official explanation, though shrewd court members believe this is all part of an expansionistic plan. They're also clever enough not to speak their theory out loud.


To the west, the war isn't going too well. Our troops have still not located Orissan lands, though they believe they've pinpointed the capitol. Getting there proves impossible, and as our junior 'ally' Bengal suffered a series of humiliating defeats early in the conflict, Biao I is forced to offer a token compensation to end the hostilities.


Arakan, however, continues to be a point of contention. This time, it is Pegu that starts an invasion. True to our wod, Ming rallies to their defense.


We liberate Sukhothai from the clutches of Ayutthaya. We might have asked for more, but our troops are needed elsewhere - and a remarkable opportunity has arisen. Biao I insists on immediate peace, and even the nobility do not dare object... too much.


For the same reason, Shan is offered a token settlement, settling that conflict as well. Ming is at peace.


...but it won't be for much longer. Hindu Zealots in Panduranga have been granted an audience with the Emperor, and their faith has shown some appeal to Biao I - especially the part about Hindu subjects accepting 55% more taxes without complaints than Confucian subjects.


Though it obliterates all prestige and stability Ming has achieved, Biao I issues the order to convert. Even though China has nearly no Hindu provinces, the -30% wrong religion tax penalty is outweighed by the +55% increase - once order is restored. Outraged nobles strip the throne for much power, leaving Ming only slightly Centralized.

From January 1414, Ming is thus a Hindu state.


Now a Hindu, at least publically, Biao I gains quite a few new religious decisions to make. The first to be passed is the Anti-Muslim Edict. Though heathens throughout the realm will be more restless, it will grant us precious missionaries.


The fortifications of Xuan Fu are all but weathered away. When made aware of this, Biao I orders a strengthening of forts throughout the empire. This is the last decree the Emperor issues. Much too young still, he slips on an egg roll a servant had carelessly dropped on the floor, breaking his imperial neck. The neck of the servant follows. What is worse, Biao I had no legitimate children. What will now become of Ming China?

Vesimir said:

....

This is to gamey. Really, really, really to gamey.

But that's why I love your AARs! As gamey as possible, with more exploits than anywhere else! (And let's not forget the noodles.)

Also it seems the Oirat will stay an opm surronded by you till the end of the game. I mean insult if they like you, cancel current mission and you've got free -10BB! It can't get better than this.

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The whole point of this is being gamey. I want to see how far I can take this. Mind, I'm avoiding republics this time - in part for fun, in part because it was such a hassle to edit the election screenshots every four years.

The Oirats will be an OPM eventually, but past experiences has taught me the value of letting them keep a few provinces - especially their few fortified ones. Mongol rebels of all varieties have a tendency to spawn on them. Their destruction by rebel would be disastrous.

sprites said:

maybe you should dow japan before they convert hokkaido to shintoism
you have the oirats too for converting to animism/shamanism

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I should have... but I didn't notice Hokkaido was animist until it was too late. Japan was quick to convert them.

I'm afraid the Oirats would make poor converters - remember, if they grow bigger, so does the amount of ducats I must pay to get in their good graces. Moreover, I dare not let them slip my 'control zone', out of fear of losing them.

MizarNX said:

Loved your first two AARs and I'm sure this one will be great!
I'll be following.

I agree with sprites, save the animists in Japan!

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Glad to have you following.

I'm afraid I didn't react in time regarding the Hokkaido animists. At this point in the game, they are already gone.

Devilmay said:

Your aar's are realy cool and so fast spaced. Thats why i like em

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I don't know about cool, but I do try to keep them going forward. Glad you like them, though.

spock2 said:

now i can see pictures.....and it is what,less than 20 yrs in game and u are a hindu nation,clap,clap

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Less than fifteen, actually. I've had games where I've managed it a decade sooner, too.

Glad the pictures are working for you now.

TonyJoe said:

See, this is why I'm glad you're playing an eastern nation - I never even realized there were Hindu game rules like this. How long do you think it will take to convert China proper to Hinduism?

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Converting within the religious group is possible for all of them. Outside the Catholic/Reformed/Protestant group, I believe this is one of the few ways you can do so. There aren't many of those swaps that have as much to gain as Confucian to Hindu, though. An Orthodox player might want to convert for more religious decisions towards missionaries, but beyond that...

Converting China proper actually doesn't take so long. It's more a problem of not having enough missionaries. Even with a 20% annual success rate, few provinces last more than that five-year period. I have a religious map coming up in the 1450 update - you'll see then.

PrawnStar said:

*Subscribes* I'll be watching too many interesting tricks and tactics not too

Nice conversion LOL

It might be quite hard to get Ryukyu converting - pagans don't get any missionaries unless they are narrowminded (and the AI usually moves the other way), chooses Divine Supremacy (no idea if they will I don't bother reading the files) or they hold Rome (this one is reasonable )

Not sure about allying with them. As vassals you'll always be called to their defence but as allies they'll join your wars. The AI might hit back, I'm thinking possibly Timurids.

I hope you've got a proper reason to have this not just hosting AAR screenshots!

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I like my Hindi Ming. It's the fastest way to greatness.

...now, I believe you are absolutely right... I believe my best hope is to increase the size of Ryukyu - and thus their tax income. With them being of Japanese culture, I wonder where I ought to shop for provinces for them...

Another point in Ryukyu's favor is that they're just about the most advanced Pagan on the map, being in the Chinese rather than the African or New World tech groups. Alas, they do not have Divine Supremacy in their idea roster. I did a quick check, and of the starting pagans (I can release new pagan vassals if I do some tricksy stuff), these have Divine Supremacy in their roster: Aztec, Inca, Maya, Songhai and Zapotec. Mind you, I also checked on Ryukyu in my 'present' situation, since you gave me a scare. They're leaning towards narrowminded, and show no signs of moving their sliders either. Moreover, they have a 'convert province x' mission going, and enough funds to get started... Unfortunately, they aren't pursuing the goal (yet).

The New World natives all have Divine Supremacy as their second NI, but as we all know, they'll never get a single one while they remain in that tech group. I might have to do something tricksy there... I've never noticed - if you release a vassal, do they automatically get your tech group as well?

Oh, and the pro account is just for screenshots. Wanted all the screenshots at one place rather than deal with the hassle of having multiple free hosting sites and having to juggle bandwidth. Not that much of a cost, to keep such headaches away.

Fortunately, the late Emperor Biao I did have a most gifted sister. Empress Harishu I takes the throne, wringing the Mandate out of the hands of ambitious nobles. While she cannot take command of our forces in the field, her brilliant mind will strengthen the Ming dynasty.


As is almost tradition, the peasantry flocks to the imperial palace to acknowledge the new Empress - and beg for just a little more freedom. Harishu I generously accepts their pleas, aware it is in the long-term interest of our nation.


A letter arrives from the exiled noodle chef. The Oirats have taken a liking to Chinese noodles, and relations have improved considerably. However, the Empress knows that Ming's future depends on this relationship being a bumpy one. A few carefully crafted letters to the Oirat leaders ought to ensure this. In the meantime, the nobles at court suggest we improve relations with Khmer. Harishu I instead contemplates attacking the same nation.


With some stability regained, it is time to pick sides in the Hindu Movements. The aggressive Advaita Movement does cause quite a disturbance, but the missionary boost they provide is invaluable.


The choice certainly pays off. Jiangsu province converts to Hinduism, and the odds of a large, dangerous rebellion near the imperial palace is thus almost gone.


The Empress convinces the nobility to abandon the desire for Khmer's favor, instead focusing them on the Oirats yet again. The exiled noodle chef is still alive, despite the 'unfortunate' remarks about the parentage of certain Oirat nobles the Empress included in the latest dispatch north.


Luckily, they believe the claim the slights were included by the Empress' scribe, and that Harishu I is completely innocent. Our eyes stray south. Taungu has survived on our mercy, but it can no longer be extended.


Still, the north must be secured first. A recent emmisary snuck some poison into the noodle chef's last meal, and frame the Oirat nobility. A declaration of war follows on May 3rd, 1417.


Generations of investment has paid off. In October 1417, our advances in Government permits us to adopt our first National Idea and build temples.


Empress Harushi I decrees that our focus shall be on settling nearby provinces not yet claimed by any organized government.


The Oirats are greatly reduced. Our forces have seized control of the various territories along the way, and now, the Oirats are forced to surrender all claims to the lands. We leave them three provinces. This might seem odd, but there are reasons for doing this - long, loooong term reasons, and as a backup-plan.


Arakan is again under attack. On January 26th, 1419, Ming joins the conflict.


Harushi I does make sure our troops arrive 'just' too late to save Arakan.


Sadly, the stress of ruling our great empire is proving too much for our dear Empress - or at least, so some of the more influencial noblemen make it appear.


Aceh assails Champa, and Ming rallies. We join the war on Febrary 18th, 1420.



Taungu is officially absorbed into China.


This concludes our divine mission, and again we must try to improve relations with the Oirats. What feast will be necessary to make them forget about the war, we wonder... Perhaps we should start with some some dim sum.


Shan will not trouble us any further.


Khmer admits total defeat, and we allow them their reprieve.


Now that we have a Sunni province, we must strive to ease tensions between our faiths - both of which are still minorities. Our efforts do result in a nice research boost, at the increased difficulty of maintainin stability. In the long run, that should not matter thanks to the Oirats.


Aceh finally manages to conquer Champa. Now, we can counter-attack.


However, news from the cold plains of the northeast shifts our focus. Ming riders are sent to challenge the very masters of horseback. Done are the times we hid behind the Great Wall. Now, we shall stomp them underfoot until they surrender. Footfall has come!

spock2 said:

finally some muslims to fight

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Mayhap... but their religion isn't why I'd fight them.

jhhowell said:

Great to see the new AAR, but now that I've seen that Oirat mission I'm sorely tempted to start up a Ming game of my own... I was afraid this would happen!

I'm not very familiar with the eastern religions, especially their religious decisions (I last played over there in 1.2...). Is Hindu the best of the three you could have chosen? Shinto gets a nice morale bonus which seems attractive for an early game conversion like this. Not sure what Buddhist gets. Since you'll be doing the animist wave again the large number of Hindu provinces in India seems irrelevant to the choice of religion you convert to. I'm guessing the decisive factor was those two missionary bonus decisions you've taken with Hindu?

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Of all the missions in the game, the Oirat one is by far the most easily exploited one.

Morale matters little, tax income matters far more - and then, Hinduism is the best of the four religions. They also have a few more useful religious decisions. Shintoism has none, IIRC, and Buddhism only has one that is of little consequence. As for India... it'll take a long while for the animist wave to get going, so it can be helpful to have a 'quiet' area of the map with regards to rebels until then.

kossmikman said:

Hinduism is the best of the 4 eastern religions when you consider that buddhism, confucianism and shitoism all have severe taxe maluses. So even with all its provinces being the wrong religion, ming will make more money as hindu than confucinist.

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Quite correct. Confucian is -50%, Hindu is +5%, so even with a -30% wrong religion malus plus penalties for tolerance levels, Hinduism pays off in the long run.

Selmuth said:

aghh, that's a shame to see you abuse the Oirat Horde mission. It kind of makes the whole "WC without passing the BB treshold" moot. You don't even try to minimize BB gain
(if you plan to convert to hinduism, why not conquer all hindu countries before converting? )

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Ah, but I've not marked the 'BB limited WC' as a goal in this AAR, either.

And - it might not appear that way, but I still have to manage my BB somewhat. My 'hard limit' is 13 points, and I have to time the Oirat missions with my conquests as not to cross that one. Not nearly as difficult, I know, but it takes slight consideration when fighting half a dozen OPMs.

I could have conquered India, but I'd need Unam Sanctam to avoid a stability hit fighting them anyway - and I'd rather get going with my Hindi conversion than delay until I'd secured India.

enkhuush said:

I think confucianism is -50% severe but not -20% of shinto and buddhism.

And I wish you good luck, Kebzero!

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I believe that's correct. I can't recall Shintoism at the top of my head.

And thanks. Best of luck to your recent endeavor, too. I suspect Castille will be reasonably "easy".

Convincing the Oirats of Ming's good intentions is remarkably easy. A spot of good tea and some kind words is all it takes. Granted, we had to buy tea for all of them, resulting in the loss of many ducats, but the grand gesture is well received both at home and abroad. Our nobles then agree on a most ambitious mission.


Far too ambitious. Even the weakened Empress can see as much.


Pegu is forced to surrender not only their gains in Arakan, but everything else short of their capitol province as well.


Harushi I at long last manages to convince the nobility the folly of building an army that will mean financial ruin for China. Tired of tea, the Oirats are again restless. Thinking them tired of foods, the Empress orders a shipment of the finest porcelain and cutlery. If nothing else, they will have something better than their clay pots to enjoy Chinese cuisine from in the future.


Our navy is simply not strong enough to invade Sumatra at this time. Aceh accepts the surrender of Vijaya, and that is enough, for now.


Harushi I continues the enlightenment program of her ancestors. However, some of the new concepts cause quite a stir throughout the country.


With the Oirats content - at least until our next insult arrives - it is perhaps time to claim Taiwan.


This task is easily done. Now, to repair our Oirat relations once more.


It is time to ride west. Their allies are of no real concern, but the two mightiest empires this side of Germany guarantee them, and neither will look favorably on our attack. On the cold morning of January 6th, 1425, the Ming armies begin to move. This will be a long and bloody struggle, especially if the greater powers choose to intervene directly.


Their amassed forces are truly awe-inspiring. We will have to enter the unknown and hope we do not encounter the bulk of these mighty armies in the process. As luck would have it, the Timurids appear to have some internal turmoil at the moment, and the Golden Horde is not entirely tranquil either.


A full year later, January 18th, 1426. Ayutthaya assaults Khmer. The Empress decrees we must intervene.


Kasakh has no forts, but mapping out the great white landscape takes a long time. We avoid a direct border with the Timurid Empire, for now.


The wicked Manchu dare warn us, despite our pristine reputation and considerable standing army. If they act further, they shall learn we are not as weak as we might appear.


An expedition of a mere two regiments encounters a large Golden Horde force moving our way. There is simply no way for us to repel this force at present, especially with forts still under construction.


For this reason, Empress Harushi I offers the Timurids tribute in return for peace. With these trinkets, the entire alliance ends their hostilities with Ming.


In the south, Ayutthaya also accepts peace. Sadly, our forces failed to engineer their invasion of Khmer first. No matter, they too will join China eventually.


The Empress has need for more subjects - and India is full of Hindu peasants in need of new masters. More importantly, the Timurids have expressed an interest for the subcontinent, and Ming cannot afford to stay out of this for too long. Bengal is the first step. At the same time, we intend to teach Manchu some manners. The attack commences on February 18th, 1428.


Bengal is quickly overrun. Unfortunately, they have a province out of our reach - at least, for now.


As for Manchu, we merely throw them a quick blow. We will finish them later.


Delhi is also let off easy - mostly because our invasion force is about to be counter-attacked. Delhi is no small force, but they tend to be busy with rebels.


After some time, war exhaustion has dropped to a manageable level. June 19th, 1430, it is time to reduce Assam further.


They are quickly trimmed down, broadening the Ming path into India.


Khmer is pushed back, and perhaps this marks the beginning of their end.


From the northwest comes interesting news. Empress Harushi I orders a large contingent of cavalrymen to the Golden Horde border. They do have a triplicate defense, though - they are in unknown territory, they have numerous and powerful cavalry units, and winter still holds much of the lands.

However, the Empress knows spring will come.