AFAIK you are a little far from reality. Radar installations has nothing with intelligence center. First of all they were used only for tracking planes (and they do so until now), even now radar stations are not able to 'see' land units.
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AFAIK you are a little far from reality. Radar installations has nothing with intelligence center. First of all they were used only for tracking planes (and they do so until now), even now radar stations are not able to 'see' land units.
I never said they were the same thing. I said that likely locations for listening posts and radar stations fall roughly within the same regions, so there's no point in splitting them up. What the combined radar/SigInt site represents in HOI3 is obviously a listening station, to which a data analysis center may be attached, or not. British listening stations were in SE England, same as their radar stations.
If you don't believe me -
List of British listening stations in WW2
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I hope thats not true. Would be awesome if you were able to hide for example an Infantry division for an ambush in jungles, forrests or mountains. I know division size ambushs might not be that common, but there would be very few ways to detect a division that wanna stay hidden in those terrains without air recon or SIG INT.
When was a whole infantry division EVER hidden in a jungle for an ambush? This isn't the war in Vietnam...
Seriously, I dare to give me a single example of where a whole regular division (or generally a formation of at least 10,000 people) was hiding in a forest waiting to ambush someone, in the 1936-1945 period. You get a personalized Alexander Seil cookie if you can find one.
Seriously, I dare to give me a single example of where a whole regular division (or generally a formation of at least 10,000 people) was hiding in a forest waiting to ambush someone, in the 1936-1945 period. You get a personalized Alexander Seil cookie if you can find one.
Well if we are talking about intelligence you could underestimate the enemies strength by more then a few divisions.
If that counts as a division jumping out from behind a door a going boo I am not sure.
I would say that the Germans got a fair old surprise when the Soviets encircled them at Stalingrad.
If that counts as a division jumping out from behind a door a going boo I am not sure.
I would say that the Germans got a fair old surprise when the Soviets encircled them at Stalingrad.
Does this imply that something like movement orders will be detectable (at some level, possibly?)
That doesn't mean the Soviets were waiting in ambush in a forest. Well, first of all, there are no forests around there as far as I can tell.
Second, the real surprise didn't come from the Soviets, but from the Romanians covering both German flanks. I don't think the Germans expected them to fold like that.
Alexander I do belive you.
So if those installations are going to be like you described, then it would be very odd if they can be captured by enemy.
Even if the crew won't destroy whole stuff few seconds before retreat, I can't imagine how US Army would be able to use such complicated Japan equipment.
Remove the word ambush then if its not fitting on the strategic scale? When was a whole infantry division ever hidden in a forrest? Hmm Didn't the Germans hide 10 armored divisons moving through the ardennes?
Even if the addition of SIG INT is great, I think Intel should be about much more then signals, hope we get the rest of the story soon
The Germans didn't hide 10 armored divisions in the Ardennes. The Allies didn't defend against an attack from that direction because they did not believe it to be suitable for an offensive for logistical reasons.
Well, then, you shouldn't be able to capture either listening stations or radar stations, for the same reason. In any case, all installations already go to 0 in HoI2 when captured, I'm assuming the same principle applies here.
I also don't see why the US shouldn't be able to reuse some Japanese equipment, or the other way around. There were plenty of native Japanese speakers (in addition to those with Japanese as a second language) in the US Armed Forces to do the translations of whatever material was left behind.
The only problem is that the station would be automatically upgraded to your better technology without any additional investment, but that's not really a problem with SigInt, but with the modeling of capturing any facilities from the enemy, and a necessary abstraction.
The placement of radar stations and SIGINT collections stations (which is what we are talking about) have similar characteristics. Specifically, you try to get 2 or more stations within range of the target area, with a good angle (90 degrees is best-drawing a line from each station tot he target and looking at the angle). This gives you good info for range/location etc. However intelligence collection (SIGINT) stations and Air Defence (radar) stations are almost never colocated for a couple of reasons. First is that they are controlled by different sections of the military establishment, and second, powerful transmittions (i.e. radar) that are closeby have a tendency to interfer with sensitive electronic detection gear (SIGINT). One mile or so distant is usually ok, as long as the SIGINT station is not in the transmittion path, or the sidelobes of the radar station antenna.
But with what we are dealing with here (HOI3), a region/provence/whatever is big enough to handle both, even one of the tiny pacific atoll islands, if places carefully. I don't think combining them is an issue. The technologies go hand in hand (IRL).
Okay, I can see that lumping them all into one is reasonable for gameplay. However, we should be able to destroy facilities like these if they're about to be captured. Having them simply fall to zero and be built up (rather quickly I'll add, at least in HOI2) is not acceptable. No one would leave such a hugely important facility intact to be used/captured by the enemy. In terms of gameplay this is a must.
So you are saying that the allies wouldn't have detecting them even if the ardennes was plains/hills with roads "equally unsuitable for logistical reasons"? If not, the forrest did help to conceal the attack or the strenght of it.
Concealed divisions would add a little more exitement when advancing into or near forrests, jungles and mountains.
Sorry for the OT.
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Perhaps simply razing them would be a good idea. The moment the last province switches hands, the station disappears.
May have, but poor intel is a long cry from hiding divisions in the jungle. We're not fighting VC here.
So If I understand correctly, radar stations will now have no or little effect on planes and air detection/combat?
I agree we disagree, not much more to be said about that.
I also agree with you that Signal Intel and Radar stations are vunerable enough and dependant on so much special equipment that it wouldn't make sense to be able to capture them and have them up running with anything less than Paras. And even if they could be captured intact with crew! It would be hard to just pick up where they left because of language, standards, electronics, decryption machines and so much more.
Im voting for destruction if province is taken.
Why do you assume that? They're still radar stations. With more, improved functions and features. It's a combination SIGINT and radar sites. I don't see why doing one thing prevents it from doing another.
The war in China has several examples, during the war in Burma/Malaya there were also instances of large sized units marching for days through jungle without being spotted.
Make mine a chocolate chip.
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