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Tinto Talks #5 - March 27th, 2024

Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


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The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

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This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

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WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
 
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Is there a drawback to this? I assume having strong Nobility means you can easily pass pro-nobility reforms but not really other things. Is there a merit in keeping the estates in balance to go through parliament relatively easily on many different stances, or would that just be inefficient?

Also, with seemingy 400+ years of gameplay to look forward to, what is the mechanic stopping me from favouring one estate since 1337 and creating a 100% Burgher Trade Empire or Commoner-only "Communist" regime by the end date?

It depends on what type of country you want.
 
Do levies pull from all pops, or just the commoners? It would be kind of weird in this era for commoners to have some kind of authority over whether they are pressed into service or not.

All of them
 
Since there's a lot of posts about how 'dark' the map is, and you mentioned it is cause you are playing Aragon and have fog of war, can you post a screenshot without the fog of war?
 
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There is a question in the back of my mind that I keep asking myself. Past games started and ended fairly close to each other in a way that it was possible from CK3 to HOI4 to make one mega campaign.
For exemple, CK3 end in 1453 and EU4 started in 1444. With confirmation that this game start in 1337, is continuation from one game to the next being changed?
 
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You could tie nobility power to variables that already exist in the game like how bountiful the provinces they control are, or how many peasants they control.
I do sort of wonder if estates should be divvied up based on culture or religion - the christian clergy in the ottoman empire had very different interests to the islamic clergy.
 
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The problem with four ticks per day is the time spent on the game. In EU4, the game starts in 1444 and ends in 1821. That means it takes 137,605 days/ticks to reach the end. If you use four ticks per days, that means it will take 550,420 ticks. That's a lot of ticks! This game's start date is 1337 and, if the image of this dev diary doesn't lie, it will end after Louis XIV reign (which ended in 1715). It will take at least 137,970 days to reach the end, and I'm pretty sure the game won't end just after Louis XIV's death if he has a picture on the game. Passing the days after four ticks will take at least 551,880 ticks to reach the end, which is a lot. HoI4 starts in 1936 and ends in 1950. Using one tick per day, it will take 5,110 ticks to reach the end, which is few. Now, using one tick per hour, it takes 122,640 ticks, which is closer from the EU4's 137,605.
i know, but the more the better lel. for the real time problem so that a complete game doesnt take like 1 year to complete we could make a higher speed limit than what was available. ofc this would require a decent CPU
 
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Will exactly how they will be different be one of things discussed in the next Tinto Talk?
Not by the looks of it. You can see what the next dev diary is about at the end of this week's dev diary:
Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.

I wouldn't expect PUs any time soon. Dev diaries for new games tends to cover core systems first. For example, I would expect a dev diary on government forms/monarchies in general before an in depth one on PUs.
 
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One of the things that I would really like to see in this game is to see improvements on the Castille and Spain conquest on the new world. Starting with the way the empire is managed, replacing the colonial view to a form of management more closely related to the HRE, well not quite literally the HRE, more than an entitie like the HRE, where the king of Spain is the ruler, and all the vicerroyalties are the subjects of the empire, this new mecanics of the spanish empire would enable you as the king of Spain to pass some laws, reforms, and trade politics on the american continent. One hypothetical scenario that I am thinking is the mechanic of the aprooval of the constitution of Cadiz, on 1812, where all the provinces of that empire are conglomareted into a new coutry named La Nación Española, or Spain, with a constitutional monarchy. This entitie will form with the conquest of several locations on america, and at least two on the Philipines. Well I hope that this coment improoves the historical fidelity of the game and the spanish empire and I am saying good bie with a spanish empire image.​

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ottomans and moscow are 2 great examples for my question; will small nations (which became empires later on) will high likely become empires as they did in real life or will we see a similar unrealistic randomess in ck3?
 
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Now is 'Parliament' here separate from 'Diet'? Or are you using them as bywords? And I ask that from both a historical perspective (France didn't have a Parliament, but the estates did force the King to call a Diet just before the French Revolution to deal with the debt and famine) and gameplay (Parliaments were one gameplay mechanic which were a seperate gameplay mechanic from calling Diets of your Estates)

its the same
 
When will Byzantine empire have a proper name , as they never considered themselves Byzantines, shouldn’t we give it a more historical name whether its eastern Roman Empire , Roman Empire or empire of the Romans or something as Byzantium is a modern concept to separate them from the Holy Roman Empire
 
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If Estates gain enough power in a single Location can they split off as Autonomous regions? Ie if nobles get enough power they create a vassal state lead by their family, burghers create free cities, clergy bishoprics and the like? Or possibly could it be a way to reduce an estates influence temporarily? In the short term they are happier with you and have less influence, but in the long term they have far more independence.

Also with estates having wealth is this just for buildings and the like or can they do more? Nobles building Castles and hiring mercs, burghers funding trade and colonization efforts that whilst under your country aren't directly controlled by you (East India Company).
 
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