Yeah, I've heard good things about Rubicon, so I might check it out. Thanks, I'll also check the Iranian one out, the specifically Sassanid ones I've been looking at all tend to have a fairly heavy nationalistic slant to them.
[Mod] Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod
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Yeah, I've heard good things about Rubicon, so I might check it out. Thanks, I'll also check the Iranian one out, the specifically Sassanid ones I've been looking at all tend to have a fairly heavy nationalistic slant to them.
Codex I.b
As you've probably noticed, I'm not so good at keeping focused on one topic of discussion (there are just so many!), but I'm going to try and stick with the Codex system of explaining how everything is going to work.
Roman Administration
(Under construction, because I've competly changed how it's going to work again
).
One of the other things I've been grappling with is how exactly I'm going to model the administrative divisions of the Empire(s). I considered using a system whereby you would have;
Emperor- Imperial Level
Praetorian Praefect- King Level, ruling a Prefecture (which are bloody massive by the way, bigger than most vanilla Empires)
Vicarious Level - Ducal Level, ruling a Diocese (which are similar to the size of vanilla kingdoms for the most part)
Provincial Governor - Count Level, ruling a Province (which would be a sizable number of county titles)
However, although it is probably the most historical you can get in the CK2 system (unless Paradox were going to add in another layer of government, which they aren't), it still present great problems. A single Praetorian Praefect would be so insanely powerful as to be able to overthrow an Emperor at any time of their choosing (which wasn't what happened in real life, because Praefects were civilians, not soldiers, but I can't accurately model that distinction (Legions will be vassal Merc units, and that's the closest I think I can get). Plus the whole county level thing would be a nightmare in terms of succession.
I haven't rejected that outright yet, but it has plenty of problems with it.
My prefered system is where
Emperor- Imperial Level
Vicarious Level- King Level, ruling a Diocese (but this only applies when you're a vassal of the Western Empire, or pre Reformed Eastern Empire (I'll get into the Eastern Reforms latter).
Provincial Governor - Ducal Level, ruling a Province.
Local Government- County Level, large landowners, city councils, ect.
To me this makes more sense, what do you chaps think of it?
...
Current Diocese Rulers, 395 Start (taken from SPQR mod, I can't verify their accuracy).
Diocese of Britannia,
Chrysanthus Tullius
Diocese of Galliae,
Flavius Neoterius
Diocese of Viennensis,
Gaius Volumnius
Diocese of Hispania,
Lucius Hortensius
Diocese of Italia,
Maximus Meridius (Same as Gladiator, ha)
Diocese of Italia Sub.,
Eusebius Balti
Diocese of Africa,
Publius Fabius
Diocese of Egypt,
Vibius Gratius
Diocese of Macedonia,
Thalassius Aemilius
Diocese of Dacia,
Damonicus Genucius
Diocese of Thrace,
Philoxenus Fannius
Diocese of Asiana,
Aurelianus Caedicius
Diocese of Pontus,
Numerius Livius
Diocese of Orientis,
Appius Pmpeius
...
Map of Roman Administrative Divisions
...
I've also edited the other Codex around a bit.
As you've probably noticed, I'm not so good at keeping focused on one topic of discussion (there are just so many!), but I'm going to try and stick with the Codex system of explaining how everything is going to work.
Roman Administration
(Under construction, because I've competly changed how it's going to work again
).One of the other things I've been grappling with is how exactly I'm going to model the administrative divisions of the Empire(s). I considered using a system whereby you would have;
Emperor- Imperial Level
Praetorian Praefect- King Level, ruling a Prefecture (which are bloody massive by the way, bigger than most vanilla Empires)
Vicarious Level - Ducal Level, ruling a Diocese (which are similar to the size of vanilla kingdoms for the most part)
Provincial Governor - Count Level, ruling a Province (which would be a sizable number of county titles)
However, although it is probably the most historical you can get in the CK2 system (unless Paradox were going to add in another layer of government, which they aren't), it still present great problems. A single Praetorian Praefect would be so insanely powerful as to be able to overthrow an Emperor at any time of their choosing (which wasn't what happened in real life, because Praefects were civilians, not soldiers, but I can't accurately model that distinction (Legions will be vassal Merc units, and that's the closest I think I can get). Plus the whole county level thing would be a nightmare in terms of succession.
I haven't rejected that outright yet, but it has plenty of problems with it.
My prefered system is where
Emperor- Imperial Level
Vicarious Level- King Level, ruling a Diocese (but this only applies when you're a vassal of the Western Empire, or pre Reformed Eastern Empire (I'll get into the Eastern Reforms latter).
Provincial Governor - Ducal Level, ruling a Province.
Local Government- County Level, large landowners, city councils, ect.
To me this makes more sense, what do you chaps think of it?
...
Current Diocese Rulers, 395 Start (taken from SPQR mod, I can't verify their accuracy).
Diocese of Britannia,
Chrysanthus Tullius
Diocese of Galliae,
Flavius Neoterius
Diocese of Viennensis,
Gaius Volumnius
Diocese of Hispania,
Lucius Hortensius
Diocese of Italia,
Maximus Meridius (Same as Gladiator, ha)
Diocese of Italia Sub.,
Eusebius Balti
Diocese of Africa,
Publius Fabius
Diocese of Egypt,
Vibius Gratius
Diocese of Macedonia,
Thalassius Aemilius
Diocese of Dacia,
Damonicus Genucius
Diocese of Thrace,
Philoxenus Fannius
Diocese of Asiana,
Aurelianus Caedicius
Diocese of Pontus,
Numerius Livius
Diocese of Orientis,
Appius Pmpeius
...
Map of Roman Administrative Divisions
I've also edited the other Codex around a bit.
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I'm liking the second system more. Perhaps the Praetorian Prefects could be honorary titles?
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Edit; Ohh, look at that, a shiney revamp of the first page, and some new maps
.
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I was looking over those maps on the front page while thinking about your prefect problem. Making that title honorary would work or you'll have to put a major trait limitation on their power. Maybe a trait that makes them ridiculously loyal and have the title non-inheritable. Both could work to stop them from overthrowing the emperor. Otherwise, bringing the vassal levies down to a tenth of what they should be able to pull up could work as well. Just some thoughts to help you on your way.
Thankfully there's a way to make it so that titles don't have to be inherited (Agnatic Open Elective, if you've played Mare Nostrum), it also means that you can impose term limits (say 10 years) via events too.
Both Roman Empires will have a modifier called "Decline of Rome" or something, to represent the various plagues, fall in manpower and economic/administrative stagnation thats going on (there will be a possibility to get rid of it, at least of the East). It'll also make them very reliant on Barbarian Foederati and the Comitatenses (as in real life).
I'll tell you what, I'll go ahead with making the Diocese the King level title (when the exams are done) and Praefect a honorary one, but I'll make a sub-mod where Praefect is the King-level one and see how it works.
...
Edit; I'll try and get a vague mock-up of how the map is going to look done this weekend.
Western Roman Empire
Both Roman Empires will have a modifier called "Decline of Rome" or something, to represent the various plagues, fall in manpower and economic/administrative stagnation thats going on (there will be a possibility to get rid of it, at least of the East). It'll also make them very reliant on Barbarian Foederati and the Comitatenses (as in real life).
I'll tell you what, I'll go ahead with making the Diocese the King level title (when the exams are done) and Praefect a honorary one, but I'll make a sub-mod where Praefect is the King-level one and see how it works.
...
Edit; I'll try and get a vague mock-up of how the map is going to look done this weekend.
Western Roman Empire
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Attention! To any researchers that are still interested in working on this mod!
I'm looking for any Roman Patrician families, that still existed during the 390s, that had land holdings to such an extent that they would be worth representing as a county. The likes of Symmachus, for instance.
It would mean that you could stick with a single dynasty, because the main problem with using Agnatic Open Elective as your succession method is that you stay with the title, not the dynasty.
And although it's very difficult to find them, any Praeses (Provincial Governors) would be great. I have a decent list of Vicars for the moment, but it would be nice to have a few smaller units of government selectable from the start (and the Notitia Dignitatum, my main source currently, doesn't mention any individual governors).
...
Progress moves ever onward Comrades :ninja:.
I'm looking for any Roman Patrician families, that still existed during the 390s, that had land holdings to such an extent that they would be worth representing as a county. The likes of Symmachus, for instance.
It would mean that you could stick with a single dynasty, because the main problem with using Agnatic Open Elective as your succession method is that you stay with the title, not the dynasty.
And although it's very difficult to find them, any Praeses (Provincial Governors) would be great. I have a decent list of Vicars for the moment, but it would be nice to have a few smaller units of government selectable from the start (and the Notitia Dignitatum, my main source currently, doesn't mention any individual governors).
...
Progress moves ever onward Comrades :ninja:.
You won't have as many provinces as SWMH though? IMO for a Rome mod, few provinces should be preferable even less than vanilla and more like EU:Rome would be nice.
Depends on the area, Europe will have the same amount of provinces, the likes of northern Russia (where we can't even find out which tribe inhabited it) will probably be uninhabited. The main reason I want more provinces is that A) it's historically accurate, the Roman Empire's population dwarfed that of Medieval Europe, even after all the plagues. B) It represents the administrative headache that running the Empire was and C) it makes it easier for the barbarians to seize land (the Roman Armies can't be everywhere at once, and Usurpers are more likley).
I have a friend who's doing his thesis on senatorial families and careers in the IVth Century. I'll ask him and let you know.
By the way, Tom Holland's "Persian Fire" is a good book. Historically speaking, he's not all dirty on Iranian nationalism and has no evident bias. I'd give him credit. After all, Rubicon was noy only a good read, but also a good translation of Roman thought and social psychology.
That would be brilliant, Senatorial families and landholdings are not something you can get by searching the internet. Many thanks.
Yeah, I'll probably end up ordering quite a few of Holland's books, and Peter Brown's ones too. It'll be easier to research for myself once I have the resources of university at my disposal.
It only costs me £9.40 and 40 minutes on the train to get into London, so soon after I finish my own exams on the 22nd of this month I'll take a trip to the British Library and spend a day scouring their late antiquity collection for anything we might be able to use.
Thanks very much! Unfortunately Belfast library is not quite so well stocked
, so I have to buy any books I want to use. I'm in the same boat with regard to exams, until the 14th of June.
This mod looks really sexy. Late antiquity is one of my, if not THE favorite historical periods. I'll read through the thread to see if I can provide some input.
Hmm, why don't you replace the Praetorian Praefect with the "Patrician" title. This was after all the title desired by all powerful generals as it made them the de-facto leader of the western empire.
On books, you can always try "Late Roman Warlords" by Penny MacGeorge. It give a rather vivid account of how the various "warlords" came to power and how they fell.
Thanks for the kind words.
I will have a large array of honorary titles, and Patrician will likely be among them (after all, it's what Stilicho used, as did Odoacer and Ricimer). Cheers, I'll take a look at that book.
Phew, just had my laptop throw a tantrum "You computer is unable to come out of Hibernation! System restoring!" luckily it seems to be working, I would not be a happy bunny if it had broken (and what progress I have would have gone down the drain).
I'll take a look soon and see if I can find anything useful at my school's databases.