Crown from the Gutter is an awesome, potentially overpowered event for Prussia

[Freebot]

Got it in 1844. Instantly achieved a ton of political reforms that would've taken me decades to achieve otherwise. Plus I was now a cultural union country so most of the German minors joined me within a few years and I finally got all of them in 1854. Only had to fight a hemogony war with Austria over Baden as it was the only minor I couldn't knock out their control. Of course, it was a cakewalk having already annexed most of Germany. If the AI favored taking the gutter crown, I bet we'd see a full or nearly full Germany forming a lot more often.

 

[Sujit]

But I think are there not a big prestige lose or something about infamity.

 

[Freebot]

But I think are there not a big prestige lose or something about infamity.

I remember 18 infamy. There may be a prestige hit but I'm still trading the #1 and #2 prestige spots with the UK. Remember that you can always earn prestige from battles, and there are always opportunities to win some large ones as a united Germany. During the unification, I have already had the hemogony war against Austria and blocked France's attempt to annex Iceland and Greenland from Sweden. France is actually being very aggressive. After my little policing action, they soon decided to challenge the UK over Guyana.

 

[unmerged(267157)]

Never got this event, what it does?

 

[Sujit]

Well if pan-nationalistic rebels form Germany then other German nation will join it (IIRC).

 

[Minchandre]

Never got this event, what it does?

It's caused by pan-Nationalist rebels breaking a German minor in a German GP's SoI. It gives the ruling GP a decision to form Germany with liberal polities, at the cost of prestige and infamy.

Well if pan-nationalistic rebels form Germany then other German nation will join it (IIRC).

IIRC, there's a generic event for all cultural unions that will cause minors with appropriate culture to join. This is why, for example, it's not good to force the US to release anything but the CSA (because the CSA is usually large enough to be a GP and thus won't instantly re-merge).

In fact, as USA have fun releasing Texas over and over to reduce infamy!

 

[Alerias]

Hmm I dont think its overpowered as at all. The reforms you get "for free" arent social reforms (the potentially good reforms everyone is after) but political reforms, and generally, you really want to hand those out very slowly. Having to hand out a bunch at once essentially forces you to go after a democratic model - which is the point of the Gutter event - and it sucks.

Ive turned it out as Prussia - EXACTLY as happened in OTL - to pursue the historical path of Empire.

 

[Freebot]

IIRC, there's a generic event for all cultural unions that will cause minors with appropriate culture to join.

Exactly, this event is the engine behind this gutter crown strat. Good to know what triggered the event. I was totally clueless. Prussia does have a lot OPMs in its sphere that would be easy for rebels to break. OTOH, its also possible to get royally screwed if a rebellion toppled one of Austria's spherelings and the AI opts for the gutter despite the low AI chance.

 

[BAMman100]

As I recall, Friedrich Wilhelm IV, King of Prussia, actually did get invited to become the Emperor of a liberal Germany during the 1848 revolutions, but turned down the offer because of the liberal reforms acceptance would have necessitated (and because the proposed German state would not have included Austrian lands). It's fairly accurate for the AI to turn down the offer, since you have to remember most of the rulers at the time were conservative and authoritarian. The event is triggered by pan-Nationalist rebels. I've had the event happen to me before when playing Prussia and Bavaria. Italian nations can also get it (and I think Wallachia and Moldavia too, although I'm not sure how easy that is to do), but they also have the Redshirt Unification, which doesn't involve as many political and social reforms.

 

[Freebot]

Hmm I dont think its overpowered as at all. The reforms you get "for free" arent social reforms (the potentially good reforms everyone is after) but political reforms, and generally, you really want to hand those out very slowly. Having to hand out a bunch at once essentially forces you to go after a democratic model - which is the point of the Gutter event - and it sucks.

Ive turned it out as Prussia - EXACTLY as happened in OTL - to pursue the historical path of Empire.

Generally I try to take my countries down the path of political and social reforms to prevent pops from emigrating. Also some of the social reforms can actually improve your economy by giving pops more money to spend. I'm not aware of any benefits of staying autocratic but I haven't really tried it either. In fact, I get frustrated when a country stubbornly stays conservative/reactionary despite my pushes to the contrary.

 

[BAMman100]

I almost always stay autocratic in my games. The main advantage is that you're a lot freer to act in the way you choose, no possibility of a different political party being voted in and then you having to appoint a different one and causing a militancy spike. I use social reforms to keep my folks happy, while maintaining an authoritarian political system. If you get healthcare reform done quickly enough, the immigration issue isn't a big deal.

 

[Overlord123]

If the AI favored taking the gutter crown, I bet we'd see a full or nearly full Germany forming a lot more often.

I think there is also a bug in the Coronation of Queen Victoria event trigger, because Hanover needs to be in the SOI of the UK in order for the event to fire. Problem is most of the time Prussia takes Hanover out of the SOI of the UK before the event can fire and therefore prevent the NGF from forming as Hanover is a satellite of the UK.

 

[Achab]

I think there is also a bug in the Coronation of Queen Victoria event trigger, because Hanover needs to be in the SOI of the UK in order for the event to fire. Problem is most of the time Prussia takes Hanover out of the SOI of the UK before the event can fire and therefore prevent the NGF from forming as Hanover is a satellite of the UK.

You are true that this SOI condition prevents the Coronation of QV, but Hanover joins the NGF formation happily once in the Prussian SOI.

To the original topic, its possible to form Greater Germany (e.g. including Austria) by 3 Hurrahs by 1840, so why wait till '44

 

[Freebot]

In fact, as USA have fun releasing Texas over and over to reduce infamy!

You, sir, tempt me to absolute evil. You have any idea how germanic OPMs that Germany can release?

Edit:

To the original topic, its possible to form Greater Germany (e.g. including Austria) by 3 Hurrahs by 1840, so why wait till '44

Let me guess. You attack both Austria (hemogony and probably some other goals to clearly knock them out of GP status) and France (Alsace-Lorraine) within the first few years of the game. With Prussia's starting territory, I might barely have the guts to attack Austria. Attacking France, I'd probably be to scared to do unlesss they have shipped a lot of their troops overseas. The strategy I was expecting to execute was to form NGF then attack France and Austria.

 

[Sujit]

If Austria is in your SOI when you from Germany then Austria will be a part of the German Empire.

 

[Achab]

Let me guess. You attack both Austria (hemogony and probably some other goals to clearly knock them out of GP status) and France (Alsace-Lorraine) within the first few years of the game. With Prussia's starting territory, I might barely have the guts to attack Austria. Attacking France, I'd probably be to scared to do unlesss they have shipped a lot of their troops overseas. The strategy I was expecting to execute was to form NGF then attack France and Austria.

Attacking both France and Austria with Prussia would probably be too costly, so I usually ally with France and Turkey 1st to attack Austria. As your allies do the main job you are free to finish Denmark in the meantime. After the peace Austria joins your SOI so they are happy to ally you and beat France in turn.

Have to add that my Germany starts with 300k bucks of debts, because of the negative wartime ballance due to the canned food price skyrocketing during early wars in 1.3beta.

Also the literacy drops from 60ish to 40ish because of the illiterate austrian provinces annexed, so its kind of trade off.

 

[Phalanxia]

Does conservative millitancy go through the roof when the Gutter event is accepted? Also, it seems that any non-democratic Austria should freak out and immediately declare war on Prussia, possibly with Russia's help to crush the liberalism in Prussia.

 

[User29]

Does conservative millitancy go through the roof when the Gutter event is accepted? Also, it seems that any non-democratic Austria should freak out and immediately declare war on Prussia, possibly with Russia's help to crush the liberalism in Prussia.

I think to take into account of that Paradox added the infamy spike when forming germany in this way. that way if all you did was pick up the crown you would have to continue being fairly peaceful with everybody since it's so high, if you were an aggressive Prussia just before picking up the crown your infamy would go over and indeed Austria and Russia would "Contain" your liberalism

 

[Freebot]

IIRC, there's a generic event for all cultural unions that will cause minors with appropriate culture to join. This is why, for example, it's not good to force the US to release anything but the CSA (because the CSA is usually large enough to be a GP and thus won't instantly re-merge).

I was looking for the generic join cultural union event for sphered minors but couldn't find it. Has it been removed from the game as of 1.3 final?

 

[NezzeOne]

As I recall, Friedrich Wilhelm IV, King of Prussia, actually did get invited to become the Emperor of a liberal Germany during the 1848 revolutions, but turned down the offer because of the liberal reforms acceptance would have necessitated (and because the proposed German state would not have included Austrian lands).

Not only that, but I believe he tried to argue that accepting the crown would infringe upon the sovereign rights of the German nations, or something. Silly Friedrich Wilhelm

Anywho, I don't think it's overpowered at all. It depends on your current situation, really. If I recall properly, the event makes you about as prestigeous as dirt and makes everyone under the sun hate you. Of course, you can do a lot to negate that, but the penalties are enough to a point where I think it's balanced.