Hello everyone, I'm Tegus, one of the programmers working on Crusader
Kings II. Welcome to the fifth dev diary for CK2 and the first one written
by me. In today's dev diary I'm going to talk a bit about the map and why
we've chosen to implement a new one in CK2.

As you all know, in our games the map is an important tool for both
displaying information and setting the mood of the game. In HoI3 we had a
grayish map that we felt was appropriate for a war game. We took this map
and altered it slightly when making Victoria 2, but this time the map was
drawn with vivid colors to portray the progress of the era. The next game to
use the map was Divine Wind because we all felt that EU3 was in need of a
graphical face lift. While this map technology looked good in the
mentioned games, there were certain technological limitations which we
wanted to improve upon or get rid of.

With CK2, we have devoted time to rewrite the graphics code for the map
from scratch. We are back to a pure 3D map similar to the one used in EU3:
Rome. We have visible topology and you will be able to rotate the world
around the way you please. While neither the technology nor the art assets
are in any way final, we do feel that the new map already has great
potential and is a big step in the right direction towards our visual
goals. Hopefully this new tech will also span multiple games, so we
can steadily improve it.



To be fair, if I would describe what we have done with the map so far, it
would just be sentence after sentence of technical mumbo-jumbo, so I'll
spare you the details. Let's instead focus on what visual details that
have been improved and what we want to add before the game is shipped.

We've improved the looks of the water significantly and added refraction
so you can actually see topology under the ocean surface. Aerie has taken
the time to find real-world topology data(although we've exaggerated it
somewhat), it definitely gives a cool feel to the terrain. Borders have
also gotten some love and now use a new system which enables us to make
them much smoother. Much of the previous jaggedness is gone. We've also
begun to implement and test a more detailed lighting model, which we will
continue to improve upon until we release the game. Another cool
feature(which isn't really part of the map) are the units, whose tabards
now show the heraldic flag of the unit leader.



But there are still some things which we're missing. We need trees and
rivers. We need to add province names and realm names, which exist in all
our latest games. I'd like to add more information to borders, so borders
between two realms are colored by the realms' respective colors. There are
of course lots of more things we want to do, but I won't spill the beans
just yet.



All in all, we are very happy with the way the new map is coming along.
Hopefully you will enjoy it as well once you get to play the game!

Fredrik Zetterman, Deluxe programmer, currently working on Crusader Kings
II

 

[LordofSaxony]

It looks nice. Like a beefed up EU:Rome map.

But you know we'd be happier if you had a flat map that looked like a medieval cloth map or a tapestry

I'm curious how the political map looks in more detail. I hardly ever play any paradox game using the geography map.

I like how it is right now, but when you zoom all the way out I'd like a parchment like map. That's a good compromise, imo.

 

[vertinox]

Bu tthe Total War Series has a a 3D map. So either you feel that you don't like the kind of map seen in Total War or you think our switch to a 3D map is nice.

The first 2 Total War games had really good maps (Shogun and Medevial Total War), of course thoese were 2d. Rome: Total War's map, not so great.

 

[RedRooster81]

I like how it is right now, but when you zoom all the way out I'd like a parchment like map. That's a good compromise, imo.

@Vertinox: The layering would be nice, though I don't know how well it would work.

@LoS: I like the idea of the parchment zoom-out. But I would rather if it were more like the current EU3 or V2 maps but with a late medieval flair than a mappi mundi (for programming reasons I assume that it would be harder to pull off, but I'll leave it to the devs).

 

[vertinox]

Your question makes absolutely no sense. The map in Total War could no doubt indicate what the terrain would be on a 2D map if the developers were inclined to go for a 2D map, from that perspective is there no benefit for a 3D map in Total War.

I think what he is trying to say that when Total War went to a 3d map, they also did away with provinces and the units themselves were free moving.

Therefore, the terrain on the Total War maps was rather important as if you moved an army one inch in any direction, it could change the terrain the battle map was fought in. Actually Mount & Blade uses a similar system where the terrain change change even on small movements by your unit on the map which made terrain very important detail on the map. Where is in the EU3, Vic2, and HoI3, since battles are fought province wide and not in a freeform manner, its not as important to constantly see terrain as the units are either in the province or not.

In fact, because I am already familiar with global geography, I already know what a province is like before even look at a tool tip so I'm not really concerned. Sometimes I'll look in Russia in HoI3 when I forget where the swamps are, but even then I prefer the simple terrain map.

Buth truth be told... I'm not really impressed with the new Shogun 2 Total War map (the one coming out in march). It looks pretty but its too convoluted to process visual information. If I wasn't such a Sengoku period fan, I think I'd pass on their game (well, I think I might pass until 5 patches in knowing the Total War series)

When I look at a map the main things I am concerned about:

Political Borders
Who I am at war with (diplo map)
Occupations
Troop locations and strength
Economy
Weather

The terrain never changes so why really worry about it too much.

 

[LordLeto]

Am I the only one who saw Ulm's regiment first on the screenshot w/ the troops? Damn you Svip!

 

[Harle]

Yes, most players (including me) tend to use the political map mode all the time. That is a shame and not really the way forward, IMO. The ambition is to make the terrain mode more useful, with enough political information that a separate map mode is not really needed.

I've always thought that the maps made too much distinction between different 'map modes.' There's no reason to have more than one or two map modes. It's better to have overlays that you can turn on and off.

I would love to see a political -overlay- that just tints the ground a certain colour. Let people change the opacity of the overlay in the settings, showing more colour at the expense of terrain beneath, or showing less colour. (Ideally, at full opacity the overlay would very much resemble the political map mode anyway).

I always assumed that the map modes were made separate to cut down on engine clutter. If you were running every map mode at the same time in earlier games it would probably have caused slow-downs. I'm curious if that is still a problem.

Anyway, I am all in favour of combining terrain and political information, but there's something to be said for being able to zoom out and get a big picture of political boundaries, something that can't be done if the only political indication is the colour of the lines around the realms.

Maybe having a coloured overlay with increasing opacity as you zoom out? At full maximum zoom(out) the map would effectively become a political map, and as you zoom in the province colours become less opaque until it's just terrain data and coloured borders.

 

[unmerged(205402)]

Sorry but for me this map looks ugly. And wasting only PC requirements. Why you cant make beutifull 2D map with arts details like from medieval old book? It could give great style. And last thing, FOR WHAT I NEED TURN AROUND MAP?! :/

 

[Seli]

Sorry but for me this map looks ugly. And wasting only PC requirements. Why you cant make beutifull 2D map with arts details like from medieval old book? It could give great style. And last thing, FOR WHAT I NEED TURN AROUND MAP?! :/

The map actually makes the requirements more manageable, and has done so since they were introduced for EU3. This 3d map has about the same requirements as the faux 2d maps of HOI3 EU3 and Vic2, and using a 3d engine (and thus the GPU) to render the map frees the CPU to do all the calculations needed for this type of games.

 

[Captain Frakas]

FOR WHAT I NEED TURN AROUND MAP?! :/

To have it orientated toward Jerusalem.

 

[RedRooster81]

To have it orientated toward Jerusalem.

Or whatever the center of the world is to you: Paris is a good candidate Or Rome.

Seriously, though, would it be possible to have the map rotation and game speed saved in the save file so that when I start up a new session, I don't have to change it all again. CK1 remembered your game speed preference, but the EU series requires me to punch the speed up button a few times to get back up to third gear

 

[Markus_cz]

While the map is indeed very nice, there's one thing I've been missing in all Paradox games - I'd really love the terrain mode show not only terrain but also population, represented as small towns and cities, roads, farms. The point is to be able to see the major population centres and the most important provinces at glance. Population is such an important factor in all Paradox games - it defines both manpower and income - but it's not shown on the map, and one has to manually click provinces and see the numbers which is really cumbersome. Also, imagine how beautiful would the map of eg. Germany look like: you would be able to see the huge concentrations of cities and farms in the lowlands and especially down by the sea. The Rhine valley would be full of cities and farms too, but their number would slowly fall as one moves into the higher parts of Germany and there would be provinces dominated by forests and hills with almost no population centres.

It doesn't have to be dynamic and change during the game (that would be next to impossible I guess). Basically I'm thinking textures, similar how you do terrain types. And I don't imagine it as a special map mode or overlay, but as a part of the terrain map. A stylised satellite picture, one might say.

Oh... man can dream

EDIT:
This would also be very useful when looking at places like Russia or Morroco. Those provinces look huge and terribly powerful, until you find out there's almost noone living there. The coasts of Morroco/Algiers/Tunisia etc. would look amazing if you could actually see there are people living by the sea only and that the rest of the province is just desert.

 

[Vrahn]

I certainly do love the idea of having armies represented as groups of soldiers as opposed to a large solitary man, I think overall it would look better and add to the 'immersion' if you will.

Also, will the Vicky 2 style army size counters that have been ported to Divine Wind show up in CK2? It's quite valuable for adding information to the map.

 

[LordofSaxony]

While the map is indeed very nice, there's one thing I've been missing in all Paradox games - I'd really love the terrain mode show not only terrain but also population, represented as small towns and cities, roads, farms. The point is to be able to see the major population centres and the most important provinces at glance. Population is such an important factor in all Paradox games - it defines both manpower and income - but it's not shown on the map, and one has to manually click provinces and see the numbers which is really cumbersome. Also, imagine how beautiful would the map of eg. Germany look like: you would be able to see the huge concentrations of cities and farms in the lowlands and especially down by the sea. The Rhine valley would be full of cities and farms too, but their number would slowly fall as one moves into the higher parts of Germany and there would be provinces dominated by forests and hills with almost no population centres.

It doesn't have to be dynamic and change during the game (that would be next to impossible I guess). Basically I'm thinking textures, similar how you do terrain types. And I don't imagine it as a special map mode or overlay, but as a part of the terrain map. A stylised satellite picture, one might say.

Oh... man can dream

They could do it with city graphic sizes (the buildings on the map). The smallest only has a couple buildings, the largest would have over a dozen. Basically, the bigger the population the bigger the city representation on the map. They could do it for ever 10,000 people, all the way up to 100,000+. Each 10,000 would represent 1 building added to the city graphic. Therefore just by looking at the graphic you can have a solid guess at the population of a province without even going into their information, since it's represented graphically. In short, a group of a dozen buildings grouped together would be a large metropolis, a group of a few buildings would represent a healthy sized city, and a couple of buildings would represent a village.

 

[Markus_cz]

+1
I've recently read an AAR of Victoria I and noticed how much difference did the armies - as opposed to single soldiers in Vicky 2 - made. The old sprites were also rotated towards the front, so when both sides lined up at the battlefield, it really looked immersive, like real war. I've never had that feeling with Vicky 2.

Now I now there's nothing like frontal war in CK, but I still like the idea of armies better than single soldiers. And because the engine uses 3D models as opposed to sprites, the on-map armies could easily reflect the infantry/cavalry/archers composition of the army, which is another important information that CK struggled to show in the interface (IIRC you could only see the details of an enemy army in battles).

EDIT:

They could do it with city graphic sizes (the buildings on the map). The smallest only has a couple buildings, the largest would have over a dozen. Basically, the bigger the population the bigger the city representation on the map. They could do it for ever 10,000 people, all the way up to 100,000+. Each 10,000 would represent 1 building added to the city graphic. Therefore just by looking at the graphic you can have a solid guess at the population of a province without even going into their information, since it's represented graphically. In short, a group of a dozen buildings grouped together would be a large metropolis, a group of a few buildings would represent a healthy sized city, and a couple of buildings would represent a village.

Yes, but to be honest - I wasn't interested about the population size as a numeric value as much as about the population distribution in a geographic sense. Do the people live by the sea? By the rivers? In a huge blob in the centre of the province, leaving the rest for forests? This is not really useful information, it's just eyecandy. But I still feel it would be much better and more immersive eye candy than sparky water Seeing farms and towns and roads (instead of just the capital) would add so much to the "medieval" feel.

But you're right, in usefulness terms, having the population number represented as an icon would be a nice compromise.

 

[LordofSaxony]

+1
I've recently read an AAR of Victoria I and noticed how much difference did the armies - as opposed to single soldiers in Vicky 2 - made. The old sprites were also rotated towards the front, so when both sides lined up at the battlefield, it really looked immersive, like real war. I've never had that feeling with Vicky 2.

Now I now there's nothing like frontal war in CK, but I still like the idea of armies better than single soldiers. And because the engine uses 3D models as opposed to sprites, the on-map armies could easily reflect the infantry/cavalry/archers composition of the army, which is another important information that CK struggled to show in the interface (IIRC you could only see the details of an enemy army in battles).

I suppose they could shrink the soldier graphics down to about 1/6 the size or so, and have each group of 5,000 soldiers act as 1 soldier icon. So if you have 15,000 soldiers you'll see 3 soldiers grouped, if you have 30,000 you'll see 6 soldiers grouped, and so on. You wouldn't even need to hover over their army to see the size, you could have a solid guess that way, at least within 5k or so.

 

[Markus_cz]

I suppose they could shrink the soldier graphics down to about 1/6 the size or so, and have each group of 5,000 soldiers act as 1 soldier icon. So if you have 15,000 soldiers you'll see 3 soldiers grouped, if you have 30,000 you'll see 6 soldiers grouped, and so on. You wouldn't even need to hover over their army to see the size, you could have a solid guess that way, at least within 5k or so.

A visual representation of army size? That would also be something new I like it.

 

[SAS]

I hope you can rotate the map so it straight down since I usually only play showing the political map mode.

 

[HMAS-Nameless]

Will we see population growth in the provinces like in pre-Divine Wind Eu3? I really missed the way you see little houses, roads etc. pop up when your population went up or you built something like a manufactory. Since your going away from the mapp-ish look of more recent Paradox interactive games may i please request it? It was really really cool!

 

[delra]

Will it lag? Performance is more important than appearance. You made DW map cute but majority of players can't play the game unless they are zoomed out so this new graphics isn't used at all. Please keep that in mind.

 

[unmerged(149703)]

But you know we'd be happier if you had a flat map that looked like a medieval cloth map or a tapestry

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would prefer a more realistic map. The game is about characters and we do not play as god - we effectively are our characters. I therefore want to see the world in which they live; I want to see towns grow, armies march, castles besieged, countyside pillaged, fleets sunk, great forests, fertile grasslands, rolling hills and vast deserts. I want an interesting and engaging map to fit the characters that will inhabit it. Done well enough it would have an abundance of charm, and would make a scroll-style map extremely boring by comparison. This is a step in the right direction, though the graphical aims of Paradox likely won't take it as far as I would like!