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Hello again folks!

It's a new month and high time for another development diary. This time, let's talk about barons. In the original Crusader Kings, characters could only hold titles of three ranks; count, duke and king (though these could be called different things in different cultures). Barons existed indirectly in the form of provincial nobility, which, together with the clergy, peasants and burghers, had different power, loyalty and tax values. The player could fiddle around with the power values of the four classes, which would affect the tax rate and the composition of the provincial levy. As it turned out, this was one of the least successful features in the game, because the micromanagement was tedious and did not have enough impact to make it worthwhile. Therefore, in Crusader Kings II, the whole thing has been cut. Instead, each province will have between one and eight named settlements. A settlement is either a castle, city or church, and characters can hold the title to a settlement just like they can to counties and duchies.

Castles are regular feudal holdings, whose barons are normally in fief to the provincial count. Cities are commercial hubs governed by a mayor. Finally, church settlements are run by a Bishop (or Mufti, or similiar.) Like the four classes of Crusader Kings, the three types of settlement provide different types of troop levies and have different tax rates depending on laws. Unlike the class power of Crusader Kings, the rights of churches and cities - and the investiture of their leaders - should be interesting to play around with. (More on this in a later dev diary.)

Barony tier characters are not playable, mainly for performance reasons. (We do not want barons to have courts of their own, with the explosion of characters this would require.) They have a more rudimentary form of AI than playable characters, but will respond to diplomacy and might raise their army in revolt. Another measure to keep the character count down in Crusader Kings II is that you can have your vassals double as councillors (so there is less need for minor nobles to be created by the game).

What about the level of micromanagement - won't all these baronies require more player attention? Well, the whole point of the feudal system is delegation, so the short answer is that for dukes and above; not much. Granted, the dynamic around cities and churches will require more attention, but of the right kind and infrequently. The existence of baronies will also make playing counts a lot more interesting.

I don't have any baronial graphics in particular to show you, but here's a little something that Aerie is working on...

CK2_Diary002_01.png


That's all for now. Don't miss the next dev diary on December 2!


Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
There are no technology groups like in EU3, if that is what you mean. As for the Ban title, perhaps that is what Croatian dukes will be called.


If I consider what was told for CK2, Hungary (Hungary-Croatia) didn't have counts and dukes. There were barons, and the barons were appointed and removed to govern counties. They were called 'ispán'. The western equivalent (when they went abroad they used) is comes/count, but the county was not inheritable.

Bán and the region he governs (Bánság in hungarian, I think Banate in english) is much like the same, but a bit bigger. This title was given out to a person on a troublesome region, so that he has access to a bit more funds on an actual front. (a banate is a few counties in CK1 terms) This title was not inheritable either, this was a position for a salary.

Historical banates (some obvisouly not at the same time):
Ban of Croatia
Ban of Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Dalmatia
Ban of Macsó (between Serbia and Rama, mainly a defensive region against Serbs, sometimes friendly serbs got this title)
Ban of Szörény (this was given to Wallachians when they were friendly to Hungary)
Ban of Ozora (this was in Bosnia, usually the ban was a priest who was nominated to convert bogumils)

The pattern is that báns are on borders with attacks, mostly on the croatian/bosnian/serbian border, except for Transylvania, where is a voivode. (basicly the same as a ban, but called differently for historical reasons)



If we use CK1 methods, the best to resemble them:
- ispán as count
- bán as count (with 2 counties)
- voivode as duke
 
If I consider what was told for CK2, Hungary (Hungary-Croatia) didn't have counts and dukes. There were barons, and the barons were appointed and removed to govern counties. They were called 'ispán'. The western equivalent (when they went abroad they used) is comes/count, but the county was not inheritable.

Bán and the region he governs (Bánság in hungarian, I think Banate in english) is much like the same, but a bit bigger. This title was given out to a person on a troublesome region, so that he has access to a bit more funds on an actual front. (a banate is a few counties in CK1 terms) This title was not inheritable either, this was a position for a salary.

Historical banates (some obvisouly not at the same time):
Ban of Croatia
Ban of Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Dalmatia
Ban of Macsó (between Serbia and Rama, mainly a defensive region against Serbs, sometimes friendly serbs got this title)
Ban of Szörény (this was given to Wallachians when they were friendly to Hungary)
Ban of Ozora (this was in Bosnia, usually the ban was a priest who was nominated to convert bogumils)

The pattern is that báns are on borders with attacks, mostly on the croatian/bosnian/serbian border, except for Transylvania, where is a voivode. (basicly the same as a ban, but called differently for historical reasons)



If we use CK1 methods, the best to resemble them:
- ispán as count
- bán as count (with 2 counties)
- voivode as duke

And add an inheritance law where the lands automatically revert to the liege lord uppon death. Such a law would also be handy for other areas in Europe. Of course the ruler could revoke the law, but that would logically lead to war (via event) with the liege. Though I guess that might still require some changes to the current CK-I system (where a liege lord will try to impose his laws on his vassals, rather than in this case impose a different set of laws on some of his vassals (maybe base it on character tags/traits)...
 
If I consider what was told for CK2, Hungary (Hungary-Croatia) didn't have counts and dukes. There were barons, and the barons were appointed and removed to govern counties. They were called 'ispán'. The western equivalent (when they went abroad they used) is comes/count, but the county was not inheritable.

Bán and the region he governs (Bánság in hungarian, I think Banate in english) is much like the same, but a bit bigger. This title was given out to a person on a troublesome region, so that he has access to a bit more funds on an actual front. (a banate is a few counties in CK1 terms) This title was not inheritable either, this was a position for a salary.

Historical banates (some obvisouly not at the same time):
Ban of Croatia
Ban of Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Slavonia
Ban of Croatia-Dalmatia
Ban of Macsó (between Serbia and Rama, mainly a defensive region against Serbs, sometimes friendly serbs got this title)
Ban of Szörény (this was given to Wallachians when they were friendly to Hungary)
Ban of Ozora (this was in Bosnia, usually the ban was a priest who was nominated to convert bogumils)

The pattern is that báns are on borders with attacks, mostly on the croatian/bosnian/serbian border, except for Transylvania, where is a voivode. (basicly the same as a ban, but called differently for historical reasons)



If we use CK1 methods, the best to resemble them:
- ispán as count
- bán as count (with 2 counties)
- voivode as duke

No.You got it all wrong.The ban(in the Croatian kingdom in personal union with Hungary)was the head of the administration,military and the justice system and ruled as the king' deputy.He ruled from the Drava river to the Jadran(including Bosnia,before it split off).Before that,a ban was the king's heir or a friend.There were three bans - the ban of Bosnia,Slavonia and Dalmatia.Also you say that Croatia did not have dukes and counts-we did,the most famouses counts and sometimes dukes were the Šubićs,the Zrinski,Hrvatinići itd.

Also for Doomdark i have another question.How will you represent this guy and his reign:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_Šubić_of_Bribir
 
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And add an inheritance law where the lands automatically revert to the liege lord uppon death. Such a law would also be handy for other areas in Europe. Of course the ruler could revoke the law, but that would logically lead to war (via event) with the liege. Though I guess that might still require some changes to the current CK-I system (where a liege lord will try to impose his laws on his vassals, rather than in this case impose a different set of laws on some of his vassals (maybe base it on character tags/traits)...

That would be good.

The romans used a similar method too. The leaders of the thema's were nominated and scrapped by the will of the emperor, it was not their family land as in CK1.

Also in Hungary it was used to prevent large blocks of land in one place. When a baron in north Hungary was gifted some towns, it usually was far away from his other lands. Usually they were ispáns and báns not in their local area. (like Ugrin Csák was bán of Macsó - Bosnia - while the Csák family had land in the north)
 
No.You got it all wrong.The ban(in the Croatian kingdom in personal union with Hungary)was the head of the administration,military and the justice system and ruled as the king' deputy.He ruled from the Drava river to the Jadran(including Bosnia,before it split off).Before that,a ban was the king's heir or a friend.There were three bans - the ban of Bosnia,Slavonia and Dalmatia.

?
I didn't went that deep but I said the same.
He was given military/justice/admin rights because they were on a border.


Also you say that Croatia did not have dukes and counts-we did,the most famouses counts and sometimes dukes were the Šubićs,the Zrinski,Hrvatinićooi itd.

I mixed this up. I know that in Hungary there were no counts before Charles Robert of Anjou, but in Croatia it was earlier (but I knew only about Zrínyi and Korbavai families)
 
They werent appointed because they were on a "border" but to nullify revolts and get off the burden of the administration of two kingdoms of the king.
 
They werent appointed because they were on a "border" but to nullify revolts and get off the burden of the administration of two kingdoms of the king.

What is important is that the bán/vajda/ispán (ban/voivode/zhupan) are not inheritable.
They are appointed by the king, govern in his name, removed by his wants, and do this for salary/honour.

I hope you agree on this :)
 
Yeah i agree on that.
 
What is important is that the bán/vajda/ispán (ban/voivode/zhupan) are not inheritable.
They are appointed by the king, govern in his name, removed by his wants, and do this for salary/honour.

I hope you agree on this :)

So in Hungary/Croatia only the king should be playable then ? Since if a title is not inheritable it will be game over if you start as one of those rulers.
 
And add an inheritance law where the lands automatically revert to the liege lord uppon death. Such a law would also be handy for other areas in Europe. Of course the ruler could revoke the law, but that would logically lead to war (via event) with the liege. Though I guess that might still require some changes to the current CK-I system (where a liege lord will try to impose his laws on his vassals, rather than in this case impose a different set of laws on some of his vassals (maybe base it on character tags/traits)...

And how do you plan to make this not a very big exploit ? Since having a law that gives you back the lands of your vassals after they die is of course the best law to have. And every player would try to get that law.
 
And how do you plan to make this not a very big exploit ? Since having a law that gives you back the lands of your vassals after they die is of course the best law to have. And every player would try to get that law.

You'd need particularly stringent requirements to enact it, and you'd likely end up facing large rebellions for a few decades..
 
So in Hungary/Croatia only the king should be playable then ? Since if a title is not inheritable it will be game over if you start as one of those rulers.

If historicall correct, yes.

However, I didn't have big problems with the inheritable counties in CK1.
But the original things was that 'perhaps the croat dukes will be called ban'. I just highlighted the difference between the 2, I think it is good to know.


And how do you plan to make this not a very big exploit ? Since having a law that gives you back the lands of your vassals after they die is of course the best law to have. And every player would try to get that law.

No it isn't.
You have to pay their salary, so it would cut your income. That's why the Anjou kings started giving out western-type counties, which increased their income.
Also, if there is a demense limit like in CK1, it wouldn't make sense to get back every county.
 
And how do you plan to make this not a very big exploit ? Since having a law that gives you back the lands of your vassals after they die is of course the best law to have. And every player would try to get that law.

Good point. That brings us back to the fact that for some laws prerequisites should exist. Gotta think this over a bit more ;-) ...
 
If historicall correct, yes.

However, I didn't have big problems with the inheritable counties in CK1.
But the original things was that 'perhaps the croat dukes will be called ban'. I just highlighted the difference between the 2, I think it is good to know.






No it isn't.
You have to pay their salary, so it would cut your income. That's why the Anjou kings started giving out western-type counties, which increased their income.
Also, if there is a demense limit like in CK1, it wouldn't make sense to get back every county.
.

Dude.You SHOULD be able to play as counts and dukes in Croatia.Feudalism was brought there back in the beggining of the 11th century.
 
You have to pay their salary, so it would cut your income. That's why the Anjou kings started giving out western-type counties, which increased their income.
Also, if there is a demense limit like in CK1, it wouldn't make sense to get back every county.

In England? Sheriffs typically paid a fee for a shire, and then tried to make it back with a profit through the course of their job. The kings didn't have to pay them anything .
 
In England? Sheriffs typically paid a fee for a shire, and then tried to make it back with a profit through the course of their job. The kings didn't have to pay them anything .

He's talking about the Anjou Kings of Hungary and Croatia rather than the Angevin Kings of England..
 
In England?


No


Dude.You SHOULD be able to play as counts and dukes in Croatia.Feudalism was brought there back in the beggining of the 11th century.

In this case, I talked about Hungary only, as Croatia is independent at start.
 
Sadly, I'm a couple days late to this thread, which means that the tedious debate over something related to obscure Eastern European heraldry has already begun.

But even though noone will read it, I wanted to say that this has been one of the more promising dev diaries I've ever read. I really really like how provinces have been broken down into cities, castles and churches. I remember thinking that'd have been a better way to do it when I was into modding CK1. I also really like the fact that vassals can be councilors now.