It's the first Thursday of a new month, and the stars just happen to be exactly right for a new entry in the Crusader Kings II developer diary! God willing, it will be an enlightening one. Yes, my friends, it is time to get serious and talk about religion, and, being a game about medieval times, religion obviously plays a huge part.

There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other. For example, Catholicism has an independent chief pontiff (the Pope) who can excommunicate people and call for crusades. He can also, on rare occasions, grant a divorce or a special Casus Belli. Rulers can request excommunications, divorce or an invasion casus belli from the Pope, but it will cost them a lot of Piety, and requires that the Pope hold them in high regard.

Perhaps the most central feature of the Catholic Church, however, is the investiture of bishops. As you probably recall, fiefdoms can be held by members of the clergy (the rich and juicy Temple type baronies in particular). The income from these holdings normally goes to the Pope and not the secular liege of the bishops. However, if the Prince-Bishop happens to like his liege more than the Pope, he will instead pay taxes to his liege (and allow his troop levies to be raised.) The problem is just that the clergy naturally tends to favor the Pope, which is why kings can pass a law called Crown Investiture. This allows them to appoint new bishops who are appropriately grateful and loyal. Why not just do this all the time then? Because the Pope will be most displeased with kings who have passed this law, effectively barring them from any special Papal favors. There is a way around this problem too though: antipopes. Kings with Crown Investiture and high enough Prestige can set up a Pope of their own; an Antipope. This will ensure that all of the bishops in the kingdom pay taxes to the Crown, and will allow the king to excommunicate characters within the kingdom (but not outside it), arrange divorce, etc. Moreover, characters within the kingdom are immune to excommunication by the Pope, and foreign bishops who prefer your antipope might actually pay taxes to him (and therefore to you.) Antipopes cannot call for Crusades, however.

Another downside is that the setting up - and existence of - antipopes harms the "Moral Authority" of your religion. This value represents how respected the religion is and its general hold over the faithful. When the value is low, the chief pontiff can no longer call for Crusades, heresies start to run rampant, and characters and provinces will not convert to the religion easily. It is all a trade-off, and trade-offs are the heart and soul of good gameplay.



What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

That's all for now. At some point I will talk more about heresies. Until next time!



Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[tretii_sleva]

Beginning of the article: There will be unique features for each religion! Yeah!!!

Middle of the article: Orthodoxy will be much like Catholicism but without some benefits and penalties.

End of the article: Muslims are much like Orthodoxy. Yeah, both sects will be the same. Oh, and by the way, pagans will have no special features at all. Actually, all religions are the same except that some don't have access to all options and they hate each other in varying degrees.

I hope devs will put more work into this rather than wait for the modders to do their job.

Agreed. Orthodoxy is not thought through, since "is not as important as catholicism"..... I do sincerely hope developers put more brain power into this one.

 

[Doomdark]

Beginning of the article: There will be unique features for each religion! Yeah!!!

Middle of the article: Orthodoxy will be much like Catholicism but without some benefits and penalties.

End of the article: Muslims are much like Orthodoxy. Yeah, both sects will be the same. Oh, and by the way, pagans will have no special features at all. Actually, all religions are the same except that some don't have access to all options and they hate each other in varying degrees.

I hope devs will put more work into this rather than wait for the modders to do their job.

Sadly, the game we (or anyone else) are making can never be exactly the game you want us to make. In fact, it is not our job to try. Our job is to decide on the scope and limitations of the game, what is feasible and what is not. You, as a customer, do not have to worry about that of course. It's ok to wish for a detailed simulation of China too, but you are likely to be disappointed. Since we are such nice folks though, we keep the game format as open and sciptable as we can, so that each and everyone can make the game more like what they personally would have wanted.

 

[Morrell8]

Sadly, the game we (or anyone else) are making can never be exactly the game you want us to make. In fact, it is not our job to try. Our job is to decide on the scope and limitations of the game, what is feasible and what is not. You, as a customer, do not have to worry about that of course. It's ok to wish for a detailed simulation of China too, but you are likely to be disappointed. Since we are such nice folks though, we keep the game format as open and sciptable as we can, so that each and everyone can make the game more like what they personally would have wanted.

Well said Doomdark. There are always gonna be people who whine about a specific part of the game not being the best, most detailed part ever created. People should be thankful that the game is being created by such a talented group of people who actually listen and allow us, the community to mod and script to our hearts desire.

 

[TempestDK]

... Since we are such nice folks though, we keep the game format as open and sciptable as we can, so that each and everyone can make the game more like what they personally would have wanted.

Which is incidently why I personally loooove PI games

 

[Ilkhold]

Sadly, the game we (or anyone else) are making can never be exactly the game you want us to make. In fact, it is not our job to try. Our job is to decide on the scope and limitations of the game, what is feasible and what is not. You, as a customer, do not have to worry about that of course. It's ok to wish for a detailed simulation of China too, but you are likely to be disappointed. Since we are such nice folks though, we keep the game format as open and sciptable as we can, so that each and everyone can make the game more like what they personally would have wanted.

Very well said. Completely agree. But I also expect to see future addons with adjusted scopes and limitations.

 

[Doomdark]

Very well said. Completely agree. But I also expect to see future addons with adjusted scopes and limitations.

So do we.

 

[the_hdk]

Very well said. Completely agree. But I also expect to see future addons with adjusted scopes and limitations.

Indeed they need to make room for an expansion

 

[unmerged(92421)]

I'm a bit disappointed that antipopes will mostly be a cash grab it seems. Although maybe some events and such will make things quite interesting.

Making him official would be very prestigious and would restore Moral Authority to Catholicism.

What I'm thinking is that
1. It'd make the pope favourable towards you for at least a generation
2. It'd greatly reduce the heresies
3. It'd give the pope a lot of authority... and hence make it far easier to wage crusades

Although if the third one was true that could sortof lend to people making an antipope and replacing the main pope for the sole purpose of getting crusades sanctioned. I'm wondering whether that sounds right to you guys or not?

Well said Doomdark. There are always gonna be people who whine about a specific part of the game not being the best, most detailed part ever created. People should be thankful that the game is being created by such a talented group of people who actually listen and allow us, the community to mod and script to our hearts desire.

Well to be fair you could certainly get that impression, however I'm sure there'll be events that'll flesh things out quite a bit (even if it takes an expansion or two to do so, suffice to say I'm sure the base game will have enough features to warrant some getting left to an expansion).

 

[King_Duncan]

Nice work on the Antipope feature - it sounds like it will go a long way in simulating medieval Schisms!

I have a question about how Schisms will be resolved. Will there be a possibility for clerics and rulers around Europe to call for a General Council to solve the crisis? During the Great Western Schism (1378-1417) a strong conciliar movement emerged and it was eventually the Council of Constance (1414-18) that solved the three-way papal dispute. Twenty years later another ecclesiastical rift opened up between the councils of Ferrara-Florence (led by Pope Eugenius IV) and the Council of Basel, which elected its own Antipope Felix V in 1439. Struggles between rival councils were played out in the secular arena too, with king of France and the Empire navigating careful paths between neutrality and support and exploiting clerical weakness for their own ends.

Furthermore, there was always one strand of medieval thought which placed the authority of General Councils above that of popes, even if it was only with the decree Haec Sancta Synoda (1415) that the principle was temporarily enforced. After all, the great Councils of late antiquity, like Nicaea and Chalcedon, had affirmed truths on behalf of the whole church, and some medieval thinkers and rulers carried this principle through to the Crusader Kings II era. The classic work on this, if you want to learn more, is Brian Tierney, Foundations of the Conciliar Theory: The Contribution of the Medieval Canonists from Gratian to the Great Schism (1955).

 

[Nick B II]

Patriarchates are just administrative divisions. They're not their own religions. You'd still be plain old Orthodox, just like Catholic antipopes are in terms of their character religion still plan old Catholic.

I was thinking more along the lines of having Patriachs be like antipopes, except for the "anti" aspects. Funnelling money to their king, giving him investiture rights etc

The difficulty here is that to be an anti-Pope you need a claim on the Pope. That's a valid CB. What's less ahistorical -- a Patriarch of Moscow whose people are all Russian Orthodox, or a Patriarch of Moscow who has the right to take the place of the Patriarch of Constaninople?

The game engines the devs at writing will support one or the other.

Nick

 

[Nick B II]

Agreed. Orthodoxy is not thought through, since "is not as important as catholicism"..... I do sincerely hope developers put more brain power into this one.

You know the mods I mentioned in my last post? Either one is a hell of a lot better then the poor Irish are getting. They had a unique legal system that cannot be modded in, will not be supported out of the box, and will probably never get an expansion. They don't have a constituency on the forum demanding Irish Dukes be treated as Province Kings, unlike the Greeks and their Strategoi.

The devs have decreed that anyone out of the feudal heartland -- which is, in 1066, pretty much Northern France -- will be simulated imperfectly. Anyone unusual by the standards of Norman or Flemish lords in 1066 will be simulated badly. This is their right, it's their game, and I'm not sure I blame them. It is called "Crusader Kings," and the Ard Ri never went on Crusade.

In other words: man up. Your Greeks aren't gonna get the perfect solution from the devs. You'll have to mod it in. If you do a good enough job the mod may be included in a patch, or it may inspire a patching programmer to fix the problem. If you spend all your time carping about it on the forum you'll have spent a lot of time carping about it on the forum.

Nick

 

[Nick B II]

Since you're not including Judaism, don't span the map too far south in Africa. I have seen screenshots indicating that parts of Ethiopia is on the map, please reconsider this.
Reasons:
1. No crusades went to Ethiopia during the Middle Ages, this is a game about Europe and the Middle east.
2. Since you don't include the Coptic Church, Ethiopia wouldn't be playable anyways, so I don't see the point with it.
3. You can't do Medieval Ethiopia without Jews.

1. And one of Europe's obsessions was the "Kingdom of Prester John." Lots of players wanted to link up with it, which was very difficult in CK1 because the only candidate (Nubia) tended to dissapear by 1150. It was just too small to survive the Fatimids.

2. Nubia was never Greek Orthodox IRL, and it made it into CK1 as a playable Orthodox nation. I assume the sme kludge will be implemented in the first patch of CK2, and probably replaced by the first mod to make a Patriarch of Alexandria for Coptic Christians.

3. The devs disagree. The whole Beta Israel-issue is very tricky, and that's best illustrated by the fact that nobody can agree on the religion of their most prominent ruler Queen Gudit. She might have been pagan, pagan-Hebraic, or Jewish. And she might not have been one of their rulers.

Why not side with the historians who say she was a Sidamo?

Nick

 

[Logos88]

Apart from religion you can see a very interesting thing on screenshots. You now have several castles on the map on each province, and also some objects that look like churches. I'm really happy with this but is this just cosmetic? Or will it have a more deep approach like when you siege a province you can have multiple sieges? that would be really great...

oh and I really hope the black sea borders really go away, they are just ugly. On the other hand the realm borders are getting really good with the heraldry color approach with some inspiration on Civ.

 

[TheArchMede]

I like the anti pope and moral authority designs.

Will there be equivalents to the usury events in CK1? i.e. you can have Jewish financiers in your realm, or expel them, and it affects piety, but not religion.

 

[quetzilla]

oh and I really hope the black sea borders really go away, they are just ugly. On the other hand the realm borders are getting really good with the heraldry color approach with some inspiration on Civ.

I like the borders, but I still find it hard to follow which kingdoms are which. Some kind of light transparent shading would be a big help, maybe even just near the borders and fading out.

 

[anomanderus]

Wait you didn't tell us what bonuses pagans get to make up for no-pontiffness!

Also, will Zoroastrians be included in-game under the pagan umbrella? Bearing in mind that pagan would be everything in-game not Christian and not Muslim.

Also, will Ibadi and Druze exist as muslim heresies?

 

[anomanderus]

1. And one of Europe's obsessions was the "Kingdom of Prester John." Lots of players wanted to link up with it, which was very difficult in CK1 because the only candidate (Nubia) tended to dissapear by 1150. It was just too small to survive the Fatimids.

2. Nubia was never Greek Orthodox IRL, and it made it into CK1 as a playable Orthodox nation. I assume the sme kludge will be implemented in the first patch of CK2, and probably replaced by the first mod to make a Patriarch of Alexandria for Coptic Christians.

3. The devs disagree. The whole Beta Israel-issue is very tricky, and that's best illustrated by the fact that nobody can agree on the religion of their most prominent ruler Queen Gudit. She might have been pagan, pagan-Hebraic, or Jewish. And she might not have been one of their rulers.

Why not side with the historians who say she was a Sidamo?

Nick

With all due respect, Gudit lived a hundred years before gamestart, and with a name like Beta Israel the Falasha are most definitely Jewish. You even say yourself they aren't entirely sure she was Jewish. It would be entirely nice to have Jews in an expansion, most of us can agree on this.

I can completely understand the developers not adding Jews in the main game because of time constraints and limited resources and the fact that the game is Crusader Kings not Khazar Kings. That much is a satisfactory explanation, things like Khazars being gone from Itil or Gudit being a pagan instead of Jewish are unneeded.

 

[Negru Voda]

So it's safe to say that the Churches are kinda like the HRE, with an Authority measure, to symbolize unity/discord (smart and elegant structure to choose). With a hint of Rome's religion/omen mechanic for conversions. (btw: How will conversions be dealt with??????????????.. or is that gonna be discussed with heresies)

Will there be heresies in all the major religions (perhaps except for the Pagans)? (and if not, heresies are also modalbe, right? we can add any heresy we like? DOOMDARKISM?)

So do we.

When I read the diary, I felt a bit bummed out that some of the religions are not that different. But overall I'm supper hyped for the expansions and mods that will be made possible with the mechanics you guys are putting together.

 

[Reilnur]

I wonder, can an ambitious antipope become power-hungry and start trying to boss their secular leader around?

 

[King of Men]

Name one instance in which the Patriarch of Constantinople gave orders to other patriarchs. I bet that you can't.

My point is rather that the Emperor would give orders to the patriarchs, possibly using the Constantinoplian one as his mouthpiece. As for examples, I don't have far to go: Iconoclasm, persecution of Monophysites, and any number of councils and synods.