What counts as recognization and who should be recognized at the start of the game?

[Kaspar Osraige]

Alright, this wasn't at any of the dev diaries so far so I know we can only speculate but I am asking from a historical standpoint. For example, Ottomans started out as "recognized" in Vicky II when they actually were accepted as a European power in 1856 Treaty of Paris. Is recognization a prestige thing or does it have sociocultural-economical implications? How do you set an objective metric of recognization both for the Qing and the Zulu? I really wanna hear your opinions on this

 

[unmerged(760025)]

How about getting countries recognized through diplomacy ?
You would need to enter diplomatic negociations with a Great power for it to officially recognized your nation. And of course they could ask for something in exchange for their support : some money, to join their national market, a treaty port etc...
I don't think a single Great power should be able to unilaterally declares a country into a recognized nation tho, so maybe you would need the agreement of at least half of them ?

 

[Fallofthepurple]

Pulls out ye olde dusty reddit thread:

• No more "uncivilized" nations. Instead there are "Unrecognized" nations, which basically means they weren't seen as equals by the Great Powers at the time. They do NOT get any arbitrary debuffs to technology or combat just for having the "unrecognized" flag. They play by the same rules as everyone else for the most part.
• They will start out technologically behind in many cases, based on historical circumstances, and the social and economic conditions they have to deal with will generally make it harder to become an advanced, industrialized, technologically competitive nation. But that's all tied to the laws, POPs, Interest Groups, resources, and starting infrastructure, not their Unrecognized status.
• The one direct, mechanical difference is that it's cheaper and generates less threat for Recognized nations to take land from Unrecognized nations.
• You can go from Unrecognized to Recognized, for example by beating up a Great Power. The Russo-Japanese War was given as an example of an Unrecognized nation becoming Recognized.

Emphasis by me.

Its still a bit vague but it looks like there might be several ways of getting recognition, one of which is defeating a Great Power.

 

[MeDerp]

How about getting countries recognized through diplomacy ?
You would need to enter diplomatic negociations with a Great power for it to officially recognized your nation. And of course they could ask for something in exchange for their support : some money, to join their national market, a treaty port etc...
I don't think a single Great power should be able to unilaterally declares a country into a recognized nation tho, so maybe you would need the agreement of at least half of them ?

doesn't make sense in my opinion, also seems like it would go poorly in multiplayer but idk

 

[unmerged(760025)]

doesn't make sense in my opinion, also seems like it would go poorly in multiplayer but idk

Really ? Because the way I see it to be recognized you need to be acknowledge by the other nations of the world as such, and the countries that would hold the most influence on your recognization would be the Great powers. You may be right that it could cause trouble for multiplayer games tho.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

Alright, this wasn't at any of the dev diaries so far so I know we can only speculate but I am asking from a historical standpoint. For example, Ottomans started out as "recognized" in Vicky II when they actually were accepted as a European power in 1856 Treaty of Paris. Is recognization a prestige thing or does it have sociocultural-economical implications? How do you set an objective metric of recognization both for the Qing and the Zulu? I really wanna hear your opinions on this

My bet is it will be just like civ and unciv. Ottoman recognition as European power after crimean war was something slightly different imo (more like acknowledging them as part of european order in that treaty). I think here recognized mean GPs are willing or forced to deal with you on equal terms. Both in case of china and zulu that would mean modernizing, adapting certain standards of international relations and building industry and army strong enough that they are forced to take you under consideration in diplomatic actions.
However in what we know so far it is also mentioned that defeating a GP can earn recognition which is probably connected to big amount of prestige you earn this way.

 

[dragonluke]

I think it's just going to be a different name for uncivilised
so countries that were civilised in vic 2 won't become unrecognised in vic3

 

[JKComposer]

I think it's just going to be a different name for uncivilised
so countries that were civilised in vic 2 won't become unrecognised in vic3

Well, mechanically it's almost completely different. But in terms of what countries will be considered unrecognized it's a good guess it'll be mostly the same as Victoria 2's selection of uncivilized.

 

[Jamaican Castle]

I don't think a single Great power should be able to unilaterally declares a country into a recognized nation tho,

Why not? It's not like the US asked anybody before we Perry'd Japan.

From the perspective of the other Great Powers, once one has decided to start treating with a formerly unrecognized state, there are basically three options: a) also recognize them, b) invade them, or c) let the first GP get all the rewards of dealing with them. And what kind of self-respecting Great Power is going to choose c?

 

[unmerged(760025)]

Why not? It's not like the US asked anybody before we Perry'd Japan.

From the perspective of the other Great Powers, once one has decided to start treating with a formerly unrecognized state, there are basically three options: a) also recognize them, b) invade them, or c) let the first GP get all the rewards of dealing with them. And what kind of self-respecting Great Power is going to choose c?

You are not wrong but it could also lead to some gamey decision of a player starting to recognize nations to hinder the ability of the others Great powers to expand their colonial empires. Someone playing as Austria and having no intention to create a colonial empire could then simply recognized every unrecognized country in the world just to annoy the UK, France, Russia and Germany.
Making it a majority rule would make it harder for this kind of situation to happen.

 

[pheonicia]

Why not? It's not like the US asked anybody before we Perry'd Japan.

From the perspective of the other Great Powers, once one has decided to start treating with a formerly unrecognized state, there are basically three options: a) also recognize them, b) invade them, or c) let the first GP get all the rewards of dealing with them. And what kind of self-respecting Great Power is going to choose c?

I don't know if that counts as a great power recognizing an unrecognized nation. Had it not been for the civil war, the us probably would have tried to colonize Japan in the same vein as Britain in india, playing the damyio against one another and ultimately establishing an American shogunate. It's more of an abortive colonial attempt giving japan the kick it needed to rapidly modernize and become recognized with the Russo-Japanese war (the example given by the devs)