VTMB2 Theory

[LittleVampiecat]

I was starved for information so went googling around and found a site ( https://www.cbr.com/bloodlines-2-what-trailers-tell-us/ )
that said this

"Finally, the trailers seem to be hinting that Bloodlines 2 is Lilith's game just as much as the first Bloodlines was Caine's. Lilith and Caine were the first vampires, although Caine abandoned Lilith after she shared her powers with him. Caine was a huge presence in the first game, and the ending hinted that he had been accompanying the player the entire time. So far, the trailers of Bloodlines 2 are ripe with the myth and symbols surrounding Lilith, from hidden gardens, to her wish to have the ocean swallow the Earth, to the strange sight of the usually asexual and structured Tremere actively seducing a victim in a packed nightclub, to the similarities between the floral accessories donned by Lou, Mr. Damp, Elif, the official city of Chicago and the in-universe Bahari symbol for Lilith."


I find it an interesting theory but is curious what you guys would think if Lilith came back? or was hinted at in similar way as Cain was in vtmb1?

 

[Vahouth]

There are speculations floating around that the lady in Green involved in the mass embrace at the start of the game, is actually Lilith.

EDIT: Also IIRC the name of her render was Lillian...

 

[LittleVampiecat]

There are speculations floating around that the lady in Green involved in the mass embrace at the start of the game, is actually Lilith.

That could be interesting, I could also see green as somewhat a color for Lilith.
I also watched that puppet show Outstar made showing of the intro of the game and apparently you get a phone call from a lady she has dominated a homeless guy. this is of cause wildly speculation but what if that is Lilith? like its speculated it was Cain who send the "from a friend" e-mails in vtmb1 what if Lilith try to guide you here?

Of cause I wouldn't trust either Lilith or Cain with anything but chaos

 

[RagnarokCzD]

I believe that only one thing we can know for sure ... and it is that we will never know for sure.
Same as Brian dont want to tell if Cab driver was or was not Caine ... i dont believe he will ever confrim Lillith ...

 

[LittleVampiecat]

I believe that only one thing we can know for sure ... and it is that we will never know for sure.
Same as Brian dont want to tell if Cab driver was or was not Caine ... i dont believe he will ever confrim Lillith ...

That is also what makes speculating fun in my opinion, if he just said well the cab driver is Cain, or the cab driver is some dude named Carl that likes to drive people around for a hobby, we wouldn't have all the fun, interesting, or even whacked out theories we do, which can be entertaining to read

 

[Ridixo]

This has been already discussed:

Also, if we're going to read too much into the song choice which I don't necessarily think we should but 1963 in Seattle was apparently the first Civil Rights March so there's that. Might have something to do with the Thinbloods wanting to be treated less like they are. But the lyrics might be more interesting if you subscribe to the general idea of "Lilian's" presence in this game (just picking and choosing relevant seeming lyrics):

Thank you for all the joy and pain

Save those lies, darling don't explain

I can see hearts carved on a tree
Letters intertwined for all time
Yours and mine, that was fine

Thank you for seeing me again
Though we go on our separate ways
Still the memory stays for always

I said thank you for, hmm, seeing me again

Danke schoen, auf wiedersehen

The war for Seattle's blood-trade may just be a distraction, the movement of pawns, in a war of old lovers.

This is quite the theory and i like it
Lilith is an interesting figure, in WoD and out. using her can be a good idea.

apparently you get a phone call from a lady she has dominated a homeless guy

Except Lilith is not a kindred, she is a Mage. So more than dominated he would be mind-controlled, but that is a distinction without a difference. And as has been point out we will never know the truth

 

[gabrielsagon]

remember the "lilith spurned by cain" cursed painting from bloodlines?

 

[LittleVampiecat]

remember the "lilith spurned by cain" cursed painting from bloodlines?

I do but I don’t think Lilith is dead, after all there is a whole bloodline in VTM who worships her and wants her return and their deciplines reflects that remember Lacroix said in bloodlines that there were no antediluvians and the Camarilla denounces that they exist, it’s one of the things I love about RPGS “It could be this but at the same time it could actually be that instead”

 

[Ridixo]

I do but I don’t think Lilith is dead, after all there is a whole bloodline in VTM who worships her and wants her return and their deciplines reflects that remember Lacroix said in bloodlines that there were no antediluvians and the Camarilla denounces that they exist, it’s one of the things I love about RPGS “It could be this but at the same time it could actually be that instead”

The oficial posture of the Camarilla is that the Antediluvians are a myth as it's Cain. They are wrong, completely wrong
Yet Lilith is not dead. She appears in a Gehenna scenario, Fair is Foul, so she should be alive during V5 too

 

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Yeah, no one should assume that Lilith or Caine or even many of the 3rd Gen are dead just because of something an in-universe book says or what a random painting shows. It would be like saying the Bible is fact and Renaissance paintings of Biblical scenes are photographs here in the real world.

As of V5, there's only three 3rd Gens that I would say are definitively dead, Cappadocious, [Ravnos] and Augustus Giovanni.

 

[Ridixo]

As of V5, there's only three 3rd Gens that I would say are definitively dead, Cappadocious, [Ravnos] and Augustus Giovanni.

You forgot [Brujah] and [Ventrue], both of them are quite dead too
Also Giovanni didn't get to diablerize Cappadocious, and him as the founder of the clan of death is the most likely to be "alive". Even the Harbinger of Skulls pulled the trick of dying and getting back from the death. It would not surprise me he returns, even more now that the Hecata are going back to being a proper clan. And please correct me if i am wrong, but isn't Augustus Giovanni more like missing in action than anything? He may be dead, incapacitated or anything else, but with nothing confirmed so far

 

[AkatsukiLeader13]

You forgot [Brujah] and [Ventrue], both of them are quite dead too

Their deaths aren't certain. Yes, the Gehenna book does treat [Ventrue] as dead in it's scenarios but that isn't official nor is their supposed death ever seen. As for [Brujah], we don't even know who they are as there are two of them around in the vague lore. Depending on the version, the second one diablerized the first (though in some versions that first actually escaped such a fate). As for the fate of the second one, they didn't die as far as we know, they went into Torpor, buried under the ruins of Carthage with the ground then salted and blessed to prevent them from rising again. So they didn't actually die and could, however unlikely, rise again.

Also Giovanni didn't get to diablerize Cappadocious, and him as the founder of the clan of death is the most likely to be "alive".

True but at the end of the Giovanni Chronicles it's revealed that Cappa's soul was driven mad during one of the Great Maelstroms caused by the World Wars and turned into a Spectre. And if I remember correctly it was destroyed or otherwise dealt at the end of the GC.

Even the Harbinger of Skulls pulled the trick of dying and getting back from the death.

The Harbingers were never dead. Rather they escaped into the Shadowlands with the aid of some of their 4th Gen kin.

It would not surprise me he returns, even more now that the Hecata are going back to being a proper clan. And please correct me if i am wrong, but isn't Augustus Giovanni more like missing in action than anything? He may be dead, incapacitated or anything else, but with nothing confirmed so far

The Backer manuscript reveals in one of the Loresheets that Augustus was outright killed. It's called 'Calling the Family Reunion' and basically it means that you were present in some capacity in the talks that brought the various Bloodlines into a new Clan of Death. And the fifth dot of the Loresheet, the max one can have in it says this:

Spiritual Assault: You were involved in the murder of Augustus Giovanni, the methuselah responsible for the alleged destruction of the Cappadocians. As such, you know it was Augustus’ death that unleashed the maelstrom of wraiths coming after the Hecata. Anytime you or someone who consults you uses an Oblivion Ceremony to deal with a spectre or other antagonistic ghost, you gain two automatic successes.

So yeah, he's gone. And given the changes that have been wrought in the Bloodlines (their old weaknesses have been replaced by the Giovanni one) it's likely he was killed as part of ritual to bind the Bloodlines together into a new Clan.

Though I will note that at present that book isn't out yet and that it could be possible that the text will change between now and then. I doubt it will but it could.

 

[Ridixo]

Their deaths aren't certain. Yes, the Gehenna book does treat [Ventrue] as dead in it's scenarios but that isn't official nor is their supposed death ever seen. As for [Brujah], we don't even know who they are as there are two of them around in the vague lore. Depending on the version, the second one diablerized the first (though in some versions that first actually escaped such a fate). As for the fate of the second one, they didn't die as far as we know, they went into Torpor, buried under the ruins of Carthage with the ground then salted and blessed to prevent them from rising again. So they didn't actually die and could, however unlikely, rise again.



True but at the end of the Giovanni Chronicles it's revealed that Cappa's soul was driven mad during one of the Great Maelstroms caused by the World Wars and turned into a Spectre. And if I remember correctly it was destroyed or otherwise dealt at the end of the GC.



The Harbingers were never dead. Rather they escaped into the Shadowlands with the aid of some of their 4th Gen kin.



The Backer manuscript reveals in one of the Loresheets that Augustus was outright killed. It's called 'Calling the Family Reunion' and basically it means that you were present in some capacity in the talks that brought the various Bloodlines into a new Clan of Death. And the fifth dot of the Loresheet, the max one can have in it says this:



So yeah, he's gone. And given the changes that have been wrought in the Bloodlines (their old weaknesses have been replaced by the Giovanni one) it's likely he was killed as part of ritual to bind the Bloodlines together into a new Clan.

Though I will note that at present that book isn't out yet and that it could be possible that the text will change between now and then. I doubt it will but it could.

Right, you are right
Still i think [Ventrue] is dead, knowing his clan, being outside of a position of authority, power or reign would be very much the same as death. Being he alive it would be know, he wouldn't feign his own death like [Lasombra] and dominate people to think he is death