• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #5 - March 27th, 2024

Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


i9u3ksuIdrnkGRpoqqS569fPV4MxZiIUi177GzANdKN3-RRijYJv_VqMpBhjUTjsEVTaov9m4AGJ5-aoYxJ__2KR8XA1S5m-2GIUlxyKmAZCLzUNcgt-kHUYOdbcMAb8y5--BUUJRdSYo8jtzdTOfsc

The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

TG6PPAx_7XDWjJZ3JTatHNPtlwP2FtURWHBHR8r7CTRmwKGJRCv8p5yIh_3aASZtpA1Qb4OrqmBlmf3HGTWMJ1bQjS88o-fskeoBVbTIfrBMNx-HwPTOg4F9GqPSJhLCgwWLeWBBAyET3HfuPwSxZUQ

This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

fmFONeiCiTYVPVVKLr3mV8LxsRBW4VjWQN0JAuGUKG7CBTOSDXah48Os_Iv-jBZwHEatySoLTvPwr0J-XphLB-2xRNp1i5XrNaQyhDgTZ0IRhpXBMU_nJ5G8z5urGGJ9JHPkRXF4kusffvpmCxVgKsw

WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
 
  • 292Like
  • 170Love
  • 15
  • 7
  • 1
Reactions:
TG6PPAx_7XDWjJZ3JTatHNPtlwP2FtURWHBHR8r7CTRmwKGJRCv8p5yIh_3aASZtpA1Qb4OrqmBlmf3HGTWMJ1bQjS88o-fskeoBVbTIfrBMNx-HwPTOg4F9GqPSJhLCgwWLeWBBAyET3HfuPwSxZUQ

This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.


Are the icons to the far right an indicator for the current satisfaction and how it is trending as well? And the numbers to the left of it the actual values for the same data?

If so, would it be possible to move the symbol for which way it is trending/equilibrium so that it is right next to the number for the current satisfaction (ideally with increasing/dropping/equilibrium all having the exact same vertical placement rather than different ones like in the screenshot)?

I struggle to see myself ever using the ring chart instead of the actual percentages, but having some indicator next to the actual number for which way that number is currently trending would make it easier to see at a glance. As it is now I find the ring chart itself to just be "noise" which makes it more difficult to find the information I expect I will be wanting.

Alternatively, making the number for the current satisfaction colour coded to match the symbols could work.
 
  • 4
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I might be completely wrong, but on the map I see what I think are inconsistent tag names such as "Germiyanid" vs "Eretnids". Shouldn't they both either be "Germiyanid" and "Eretnid" or "Germiyanids" and "Eretnids"?
 
  • 5
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Hello!
Sorry for my poor english.
I don't know if someone already asked that because there are a lot comments here.
Will there be any changes on the subject of Estate's impact throughout given timeline? I mean we don't know end date yet but if it is at least early 18th century then e.g. Clergy cannot impacts diplomatic reputation and research speed as much as it was the late Middle Ages. Some impacts of Clergy should be distributed between state (diplomacy institution) and universities and that just an example. As you said it doesn't matter who's in charge even with communism, that's only about names and you're right but impacts should change from era/form of government/ideology etc. And it couldn't be universal thing cause Clergy at religious states should have such influence even at later times and etc. I hope you understand my thoughts.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Welcome to the fifth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design for our upcoming top secret game with the codename ‘Project Caesar.’


i9u3ksuIdrnkGRpoqqS569fPV4MxZiIUi177GzANdKN3-RRijYJv_VqMpBhjUTjsEVTaov9m4AGJ5-aoYxJ__2KR8XA1S5m-2GIUlxyKmAZCLzUNcgt-kHUYOdbcMAb8y5--BUUJRdSYo8jtzdTOfsc

The state is me! Oh, you meant E-state, sorry.. not me ..

Today we will go into detail about one of the core systems in the game, and talk about how estates work.

First of all, there are four estates in Project Caesar, which mostly map 1 to 1 with a social class: Nobility, Clergy, Burghers and the Commoners. There is also the Crown, which represents the state itself.

Each estate gains power based on the amount of population belonging to the estate, which is also modifiable by local attributes of where the population is, where some nobles may have very high power in a certain area, or whether a specific city has entrenched burgher rights there.

TG6PPAx_7XDWjJZ3JTatHNPtlwP2FtURWHBHR8r7CTRmwKGJRCv8p5yIh_3aASZtpA1Qb4OrqmBlmf3HGTWMJ1bQjS88o-fskeoBVbTIfrBMNx-HwPTOg4F9GqPSJhLCgwWLeWBBAyET3HfuPwSxZUQ

This is the estates part of the government view, where you can see their power, current satisfaction, the equilibrium its trending toward, and what privileges it currently has.

Every 1,000 nobles gives +50 estate power to their estate, while 1,000 peasants merely give +0.05 estate power as default. Then these are modified locally in every location, as mentioned above, and then in the entire country by laws, reforms and most notably the privileges that you have given the estates.

The total power of all the 4 estates and the crown then together all add up to 100%, which is the effective power they have.

Depending on your crown power, you either get a scaling penalty or scaling bonus, on aspects like the cost of revoking estate privileges, the cost of changing policies in laws, the efficiency of the cabinet, the expected costs of the court, and other things. If your crown power is weak, you need to have the estates really satisfied, or you will not get much out of any parliament you try to call.

Each of the four estates has a current satisfaction and an equilibrium it will move towards. Some estates, and some countries, will have the estate satisfaction moving quicker to the equilibrium than others. Each estate has 2 factors per type of estate in which their satisfaction impacts the entire country, where satisfaction above 50% gives a scaling bonus, and below, a scaling penalty.

If the satisfaction is below 25%, this estate will not provide any levies. Most importantly, the estate satisfaction also impacts the satisfaction of the pops that belong to that estate, possibly creating rebel factions or even civil wars.
  • Nobility impacts your prestige gain and your counterespionage.
  • Clergy impacts your research speed and your diplomatic reputation.
  • Burghers impact your merchant power and the production efficiency.
  • Commoner impacts your food production and your stability costs.

So what impacts the satisfaction equilibrium of an estate? The privileges they get, the current stability, some reforms may impact them, some laws may, how you tax them, and much more. Some examples include clergy being happier with higher religious unity or burghers liking having more market centers in your country.

# estate privileges
Estate Privileges then? You may feel forced to grant privileges to estates to be able to tax them more, and you may be forced to grant privileges to get their support in parliament. All privileges impact the power of their estate, and many also increase their satisfaction equilibrium. They all have some impact on gameplay fitting the privilege, and often they also impact a societal value of their country.

fmFONeiCiTYVPVVKLr3mV8LxsRBW4VjWQN0JAuGUKG7CBTOSDXah48Os_Iv-jBZwHEatySoLTvPwr0J-XphLB-2xRNp1i5XrNaQyhDgTZ0IRhpXBMU_nJ5G8z5urGGJ9JHPkRXF4kusffvpmCxVgKsw

WiP ui, temporary graphics and no icons etc.

There are many different privileges, and many unique ones depending on where and what type of country you play.

We mentioned taxes before, and while this is not the development diary where we go into details about the economic system, it is important to mention that the estates of a country have wealth that is increased by the amount of money that you have not taken from them in taxes. Rich estates will use their wealth on many things, primarily to invest into things that benefit them, but will often also build things that also benefit the country.

Next week we will talk about a few new concepts that are rather new to this game that have not been present in previous games, as we will talk about proximity, control and maritime presence, all concepts that need to be talked about in detail, before we go into the economy system.
Love the map, maybe Genoa, Mamelukes and Cyprus are too similar a shade or green yellow in my opinon, maybe make one an Antigonod yellow from I;R
 
How the Jews will be represented in the game? There was periods when it was apropriate to represent them as an estate (Iberian states before, iirc, 1492 and Poland before Khmelnytsky Uprising), but you said no unique estates... Btw, how will be represented the classes which was unique estates in EU4, like Cossacks or Dhimmi?
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Love everything, love the map, don't love the font and the UI tho. I know they are placeholders but it looks like Clash of Clans
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:
  • 13Like
  • 4
Reactions:
They will mostly start with historical privileges and be setup in a way to not have a brewing civil war at the start.
And what about countries where civil wars and rebellions were brewing at the start of the game? Byzantium for example
 
  • 4
Reactions:
With research being mentioned here in the context of clergy, I just want to say that I would greatly prefer it if the research system in Caesar looked more like the research system in CK3 (with tech being tied to cultures) than the research systems in EU4, Vicky 3, etc. where tech is tied only to tags.

My ideal research system would be one that expands on the institutions of EU4, where there are "institutions" (but a lot more than are in EU4) that spread among cultures (like innovations in CK3) via trade, conflict, and adjacency, and when an institution is sufficiently adopted for a culture, all tags with that primary culture are able to spend resources to adopt the technologies corresponding to that institution.

For example, one institution might be gunpowder, which might spread to your primary culture by fighting against or trading with a country that uses gunpowder weapons. Once gunpowder is adopted by your country's primary culture, you would then be able to research technologies like the initial versions of hand guns and cannons.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
This is such a silly position to hold. The veracity of achievements through ironman is next to zero. It's easy to hack the game through cheat engine, and there's even a simple program to enable the console in ironman that anyone can come across by googling "EU4 console patcher". The community of challenge runners basically requires an entire campaign to be streamed for anyone to take a run seriously because of this, and at least one content creator that I know of has gotten ensnared in a controversy when they had the ironman icon but were using console. There's also the Steam achievement unlocker and probably a bunch of other ways to get around it.

Yes, and thats why the answer was not "It will be ironman only"
 
  • 49Like
  • 19
  • 2
Reactions:
Oh, and also, loading screens in EU4 are ugly as hell (while loading screens in V3, CK3, HOI4, and most of them in Stellaris are beatiful). I hope the picture in the post in the same style is not representative of the game art (the map is nice, btw).
 
  • 11
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Could we get the cheese / cake graph or something similar as well in the UI ?

It’s not really obvious at first sight who owns which share of the country, ie is the nobility really dangerous or are they right in check ?

Also, I expect a 20% nobility power would be way more dangerous than a 20% commoner, or can the threat be considered overall “equal” ?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Johan, in terms of modding capability, does there have to be a one-to-one correspondence between pop type and estate? Could a pop type be split among multiple estates, or could two or more different pop types share an estate?
yes
 
  • 21Love
  • 9Like
  • 3
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
  • 45Love
  • 27Like
  • 2
Reactions:
@Johan I have a question from the last Dev diary that wasn't answered.

Will it be possible to use your army for more then just fighting? In Imperator you can use your army to build roads to improve infrastructure, will the same mechanic be present in this game? I really liked that feature and perhaps you can improve it further and add the potential to speed up the building of forts, harbors, towns or other building by using your army, while also increasing the cost over time etc. Perhaps using your army for different projects can be locked behind organisation prerequisits and tech?
 
  • 2Love
Reactions: