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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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We see a tooltip for the Tar traderoute and it shows the profit calculation for the last month. How frequently are trades made? Once per day, week, month?
How fast do prices change and how does it affect the calculation?
It says that 1.18 units were bought for 1.46 gold in Riga and sold for 12.59 gold in London. Are these averages over the entire month, or is that just one trade in that month?
I'm especially thinking about large trades with lots of units that could change prices significantly. If they are done at the current market price and the price only changes after a trade removes most of the market's supply or dumps a lot on the market, that could cause some significant price swings and open a lot of doors for market manipulation.
 
Can a port be built in every city? Or are ports arranged for special cities?

A port is not something you build.

There are many "port-related" buildings though
 
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How frequent locations swap between markets? It may be tedious if they change every month tbh, but dynamic markets are awesome
I would hope there was some bit of hysteresis on the value. (Even if it was a small value added to the current owner. That would mean that when you switch owners that slight benefit would also switch making vacillation hard wiht out both sides increasing/decreasing values constantly.

The star means it's a capital of an independent country.

Needless to say, mapmodes and icons at this stage are WIP WIP WIP :)
There are 7 different markers in the market screen.
  1. White diamond on black square with star - Paris, Venice
  2. White diamond on black square with dot - Lubeck, Bordeaux
  3. White diamond on black square - London, Kaffa
  4. White circle on black square with star - Krakow
  5. White circle on black square with star - Kyiv, Ragusa
  6. White circle on black square - Kazan, Pest
  7. Black circle - Astrakhan, Kunya
Also note that 4-6 is smaller than 1-3. The repetative pattern suggests that there could be a "6.5 Black Star" as part of the list
 
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"Owning a market" means owning the location of the market center, right? So if Riga owns Riga location, Stockholm owned by Sweden can't become the new market center, is that correct?

Yes, its the location
 
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Shame, hard max/and min, depending on age, feels VERY game-y. Did the simulation behave undesirably without hard limits or with prices determined exclusively through supply and demand without hard age-dependence?

It made the game better
 
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Is it just me or does the type of land change the market reach (perhaps this has already been mentioned in a Tinto Talk)? Could some rivers increase market reach? NOTE: I am using a translator
 
I guess it makes sense for pre-industrial times.
So Vicky total conversion wouldn't work here as any excess production would simply crash prices.

So GDP/Capita line can't go up.
 
Something that is overseas is very very unlikely to be a part of a London Market. Pretty sure that it would be hard to even get a conquered & integrated Lissabon to part of it.
In the case of large, contiguous land empires (for example Qing China), does this mean that you would most likely be better off unifying all of China into one single huge market, as there are no large, competing markets nearby (excluding the possibility of competing markets in other countries far away potentially stealing your locations)?

To take an extreme example, if you conquered the world, would it be most efficient for all your locations belong to one market? Or is there some benefit to having smaller local markets, even though there are no competing markets?
 
In the case of large, contiguous land empires (for example Qing China), does this mean that you would most likely be better off unifying all of China into one single huge market, as there are no large, competing markets nearby (excluding the possibility of competing markets in other countries far away potentially stealing your locations)?
I'm sending all my ships to that unified Chinese market
 
Seeing as it is granular enough for Chebksko to be it's own place or province. It shouldn't be part of Bohemia but a vassal. It was an imperial city that was pawned for a lent in 1335 (ie just 2 years prior) and it wasn't until 1348 in the reign of Charles IV. when it was "integrated" (albeit still with some autonomy even then)
1714582366246.png
 
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If your at war with a country in your market will they be more likely to leave and look elsewhere for trade.

For example scotland trying to join the French Market if England declares war on them.

too low market access really, so not worth it.
 
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Cheap beer, must be paradise…
It has probably been pointed out by now, but I'm too tired to read 20+ pages of replies at the moment. It should say "an effective supply/demand", not "a effective".

Also, that "default" isn't very self explanatory, and should probably have at least one word accompanying it. Is it default price? Did someone default their loan repayments? Or something else?
 
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So, if my merchant capacity is, say, 3.57 does this mean I can only export or/and import roughly 3-4 types of goods? and what if I need 10?

and how can I increase my capacity? building infrastructure, having more ships (extending market presence)?

You can transport 0.21 Silk if you so desire.


build more infrastructure for more capacity
 
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It has probably been pointed out by now, but I'm too tired to read 20+ pages of replies at the moment. It should say "an effective supply/demand", not "a effective".

Also, that "default" isn't very self explanatory, and should probably have at least one word accompanying it. Is it default price? Did someone default their loan repayments? Or something else?
I assume this is all still placeholder as the game is currently in developement
 
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Another question - is there any scope for market dominance to fabricate casus bellis for foreign locations belong to your market?

So, for example, if a market based in a British-owned Calcutta includes many provinces owned by Indian minors, with British traders extensively trading goods throughout those Indian provinces, could this increase the odds of diplomatic tensions and incidents which gives Britain the pretext to expand territorially as well?

Or if you could fabricate these incidents yourself in foreign lands which belong to your market (“Our traders have been wrongfully treated in your lands, so here is our punitive expeditionary force!”), that would be amazing! Linking the economy back to the diplomacy!
 
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