Skill Values drop off considerably in New Game Plus?

[JLazarillo]

As stated in the title, started my first New Game Plus run, but I've found that my characters' skills are not comparable with what they used to be. Weapon skills are slightly higher than previous, but magics have been completely erased. That seems somewhat in line with what's described in this thread:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/newgame-companion-skill-bugs.1037633/
The workaround there is to respec the companions in question but then that runs into the following problem too:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-not-clearing-up-on-character-respec.1044435/
So I'm reluctant to mess with respecs.

However, it wouldn't be so bad, except for my noncombat skills are all considerably lower as well. I suspect this is due to using trainers to level those up (particularly Lore) in my first playthrough, but it looks like the benefits of those trainers have all been erased; however, the NG+ game did not re-grant the 5 points per level to each character to be re-spent at skill trainers. As such, there's been a considerable drop-off in my characters, particularly in their ability to use spells. Is this intended, a bug, or just a known-but-not-fixed glitch in the NG+ process?

For reference, I've attached save files of both my previous play, as well as the current one, with all my available characters naked and free as possible (couldn't erase talents) to show them on as equal playing field as possible.

 

[Obsidian_David]

Hello @JLazarillo,

Did you use either of the 'Retrain' options during NG+ character creation? or just stick with what you had allocated already?


I used your Act 3 save to end the game and start a NG+ character, but did not have the issue you are describing, I see to have comparable skill values on the NG+ character as the Act 3 character (with some expected differences from missing attribute scores buffs and such):


Also, please note that only your Fatebinder's skills are expected to carry over. This feature does not apply to the companions.
David

 

[JLazarillo]

Hey David, thanks for checking on this for me, really appreciate the level of service here! I did indeed retrain to reflect the changes in plans to my Fatebinder's build. It still seems like the skills ended up slightly lower than intended. Again, I don't know if maybe it's intentional (or at least, known) to lose some skill points in that process? If so, would it fix things to respec my character BEFORE creating the finish state, rather than retraining at character creation?

Also, I'm still a little unclear on companion skills not carrying over...I get that the system cannot, presumably, point-for-point transfer over, and that's cool. However, since my transferred-over Fatebinder is level 18, they're all joining at level 18, and it seems like they're not getting purchaseable skill points for those first 18 levels (it seems like they should start with 90, they start with 0). Are those accounted for by the NG+ system? Or does the fact that there skills are lower (not just different-but-equivalent but outright lower for pretty much each non-combat skill especially) intended by design?

 

[Obsidian_David]

Hello @JLazarillo,

I think the confusion here is that you do not actually gain 'points' to assign to ranks. i.e. 5 ranks in one handed, 5 in two handed, and 5 in bows, if retrained/respec'd cannot become 15 points in dual wield. Instead you are credited the experience points needed to get those ranks, and then may reallocate the experience points to other skills. Since each rank in a skill requires more experience than the last, a character who has focused all experience into just a few skills will have less total ranks.

As for the companions, they start with ranks in the skills they use, and can be respec'd if you'd like to allocate them differently. I.e. Verse will start with ranks in bows and dual wield, although most players choose to only have her use 1 fighting style, so you would be better off respec'ing her to put all of her experience in only one of those combat forms. If you encounter Verse in NG+ at level 18, she will have significantly more ranks in her skills than at level 2 (when you met her in the first playthrough) and likewise those ranks can be repsec'd for more experience.

Please let me know if I can clarify anything else about the system, however it sounds like everything is working as intended? Please let me know if I am failing to understand something though.
-David

 

[JLazarillo]

I get that Skill levels are based on experience, and that goes up on a curve, yes. So the total added values won't always be exactly the same, especially if one skill is far more specialized than the others.

And I am definitely seeing as intended with Level 18 Verse in the NG+ having higher skills than Level 2 Verse. So far, so good. Here's what I'm not understanding:


The first image shows Lantry from the end of my first playthrough at level 18 after respeccing. The second shows values after performing a respec for him in the NG+. I did them both without wearing any equipment, and did a respec first just to make sure the amount of experience applied was equitable (he has a couple left over attribute points in the first due to being buffed by a Fatebinder reputation passive, so I just didn't spend the last couple points for equality's sake, that's not the issue, just to be clear).

What I'm not sure if is a bug or if it's a part of the system I'm not understanding is that in the first one, despite being a level lower, he is able to have all but two skills at the same levels as in the second picture, but he's also able to 11 more ranks of Control life and 51 more ranks of Lore. It seems to me like, unless I am misjudging something, all values should be equal or greater in the second image, but in fact, they're set that way in the first one instead.


What I'm wondering, then is about skill experience added from NPCs like these:

In both the original playthrough, and in NG+, at each new level my characters get five "points" that can be spent, along with Rings, to upgrade their Skills. The Ring costs increase each time due presumably to the aforementioned increased amount of experience needed per level, but I get a blanket five "spends" per level, regardless.

Does this reflect an imperfection in the system, or is there something that it should be taking into account but isn't?

 

[Obsidian_David]

I get that Skill levels are based on experience, and that goes up on a curve,

Fantastic, that's the most confusing part.

What I'm not sure if is a bug or if it's a part of the system I'm not understanding is that in the first one, despite being a level lower, he is able to have all but two skills at the same levels as in the second picture, but he's also able to 11 more ranks of Control life and 51 more ranks of Lore. It seems to me like, unless I am misjudging something, all values should be equal or greater in the second image, but in fact, they're set that way in the first one instead.

The second piece with Lantry, is that in NG+ the ranks that each character begins with is based on a pre-set table. It has no knowledge of what ranks might have been earned in the previous playthrough (trained or otherwise) and will likely not 'cash out' to the exact amount of experience that your Lantry from your first run did. This is expected based on how the data for companions is constructed for NG+.

-David

 

[JLazarillo]

Thanks for all your explanation and clarification David, you've been super helpful and I appreciate your patience with me.
It's a bit of a bummer that the table results in less experience being awarded overall to be sure, but it is a bit of a relief to know that it's a balance issue, rather than an actual bug with the system.
Perhaps I'll have to re-post this in regards to the consideration of those tables in the Suggestions forum, instead of the bugs forum.