Powderkeg of Europe - Balkans thread

[DanielPrates]

It is this thread that is the powderkeg of the Victoria3 forum!

"One day the great Forum War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans Thread" (that guy).

 

[TonyJones]

As a french, I did not learn much from the history of the balkans (I'll skip the part where I go over how bad our teaching of history is), what i know comes from what I learned from the history books that I had, researches I've done and videos I've watched (with some video games more or less accurate).
This thread actually made me realise how much history in the region is complicated and seems very complex from the point of view of someone out of it.

I've read, nearly all messages of the debates, and as I consider my point of view as neutral considering the non-knowledge I have over the subject, I can resume it as North Macedonians trying to prove their point that, while under ottoman occupation, they used bulgaria as a basis to creat nationalists movements that, then, were morphed to fit a more Macedonian-Nationalist ideal, using quotes from the creators of those movement to prove that they were Macedonians and that their goal was to create an idependent Macedonian state.

From what I have read however, the Bulgarians here, are arguying, with written proofs, that those quotes are missinterpreted and taken out of context, if not simply put together to fit the wish of creating an idea. what they want to prove is that, at the time, Macedonians identified more as Bulgarian than ethnic Macedonian, whether it being by their language or other means. They do not contradict Macedonian sovreignty or reason of being as it may be understood by reading the Macedonian arguments, they want to show that, at the time, Macedonians were close to Bulgarians ethnicaly and culturally speaking, meaning that they were close enough for Bulgarians to accept the idea of them being Bulgarian too even with the differences they had.

If I had to remember one thing from all of this is that Macedonians, or as they are called today, North Macedonians, wants to assert a cultural claim, an historical footprint and a clear distinction from Bulgarian culture and history. While if i look at the Bulgarian point, I'd remeber that they tried to show their common history and that, if Macedonians are different from Bulgarians, they have a close, common history and that it is possible at some point that some Macedonians felt close enouh form Bulgarians to seek unification.

As this is all very interesting, I'd be happy to have anyone correct me if I said anything wrong or to add any details to what I said and clarify some points.
Debates is good, just try to be civile about it and show your argument calmly while listening to the other's.

Just saying, the official name for citizens of "the Republic of North Macedonia" is Macedonian, not "North Macedonian". Kinda irrelevant, but just saying.

 

[JackAlNXT]

From what I have read however, the Bulgarians here, are arguying, with written proofs, that those quotes are missinterpreted and taken out of context, if not simply put together to fit the wish of creating an idea. what they want to prove is that, at the time, Macedonians identified more as Bulgarian than ethnic Macedonian, whether it being by their language or other means. They do not contradict Macedonian sovreignty or reason of being as it may be understood by reading the Macedonian arguments, they want to show that, at the time, Macedonians were close to Bulgarians ethnicaly and culturally speaking, meaning that they were close enough for Bulgarians to accept the idea of them being Bulgarian too even with the differences they had.

If I had to remember one thing from all of this is that Macedonians, or as they are called today, North Macedonians, wants to assert a cultural claim, an historical footprint and a clear distinction from Bulgarian culture and history. While if i look at the Bulgarian point, I'd remeber that they tried to show their common history and that, if Macedonians are different from Bulgarians, they have a close, common history and that it is possible at some point that some Macedonians felt close enouh form Bulgarians to seek unification.

I'd say you are right on point. It basically comes down to two sides arguing completely different things. It's difficult to explain to North Macedonians that "Revolutionary X identified as Bulgarian" is completely different from "Modern N. Macedonia is rightful Bulgarian clay", when they are being force-fed the opposite by both politicians, historians and media.

Heck, there was even an incident from just a few weeks ago where local N. Macedonian authorities destroyed a memorial to fallen revolutionaries that "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia and the Unification of Bulgaria", and replaced it with a new one stating that they "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia". AND, most shocking (face-palming) of all, they CHANGED the names of the revolutionaries. So, instead of having their Bulgarian last names of -OV, they now have modern N. Macedonian ending with -SKI.

I don't think anyone can deny there is a blatant falsification of history here:

Ironically, both memorials ends with a quote from Bulgarian poet Hristo Botev "He who dies for freedom is never dead". The brilliant people who replaced it were so eager to de-Bulgarify it, yet failed to recognize one of the most famous quotes from one of the most famous Bulgarians.

 

[TonyJones]

I'd say you are right on point. It basically comes down to two sides arguing completely different things. It's difficult to explain to North Macedonians that "Revolutionary X identified as Bulgarian" is completely different from "Modern N. Macedonia is rightful Bulgarian clay", when they are being force-fed the opposite by both politicians, historians and media.

Heck, there was even an incident from just a few weeks ago where local N. Macedonian authorities destroyed a memorial to fallen revolutionaries that "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia and the Unification of Bulgaria", and replaced it with a new one stating that they "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia". AND, most shocking (face-palming) of all, they CHANGED the names of the revolutionaries. So, instead of having their Bulgarian last names of -OV, they now have modern N. Macedonian ending with -SKI.

I don't think anyone can deny there is a blatant falsification of history here:
View attachment 764958

Ironically, both memorials ends with a quote from Bulgarian poet Hristo Botev "He who dies for freedom is never dead". The brilliant people who replaced it were so eager to de-Bulgarify it, yet failed to recognize one of the most famous quotes from one of the most famous Bulgarians.

Na mate. Some revolutionaries called themselves Bulgarians, and some did not. Simples.

I don't know about this event, but yes, both sides take part in historical falsification. Like Bulgarians' Voden inscription which "proved" Tsar Samoil was Bulgarian. But now even pretty much every Bulgarian even says it is fake.

 

[JackAlNXT]

Na mate. Some revolutionaries called themselves Bulgarians, and some did not. Simples.

I don't know about this event, but yes, both sides take part in historical falsification. Like Bulgarians' Voden inscription which "proved" Tsar Samoil was Bulgarian. But now even pretty much every Bulgarian even says it is fake.

I don't think the "Both sides..." argument solves anything. One fake inscription does not change the fact that every other country in the world agrees that Tsar Samuil is a Bulgarian Tsar. Basil the Bulgarslayer is not called Basil the Northmacedonianslayer... Wait, why are we talking about Samuil, this isn't CK3.

Either way, you cannot deny that, by pure percentage, there are far more cases, blatant cases, of North Macedonian falsifications than Bulgarian ones. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if I shared even 1/3 of the claims modern-day N. Macedonian historians make, no one in this forum will believe me.

The falsification of history has always been part of the larger anti-Bulgarian policy which continues to this day. Just to give an example, here is a comparison of the provocations both sides have made within the past year:

North Macedonia:
- A Facebook video of a Political group burning the Bulgarian flag.
- A public demonstration of a burning of a Bulgarian flag during a festival. Bonus for that same festival also showing off a chest with *ahem* male genitalia and labeled "Bulgarian vaccines".
- Vandalizing a monument in Ohrid dedicated to drowned Bulgarian tourists. (not the first time it's happened either)
- Stealing the flag from the Bulgarian embassy in Bitolya.
- Said above issue with the tombstone.
- A member of VMRO-DPMNE (second largest party in N. Macedonia) publicly stating "Bulgar-Tatars, you are all fascists and the only common history we have is that your women sold themselves to Serbian soldiers for little money".
- N. Macedonian exterior minister publicly lying that Bulgaria wants to 'steal our identity'.
- Members of the government financing a Slovenian News Agency which calls Bulgaria a Fascist state.
- Paying off foreign media to write pro-N.Macedonian/anti-Bulgarian articles. (This isn't speculation either, the government literally bragged that they've hired 'one of the best lobbying firms to help us')
BONUS: literally from this morning: N. Macedonia destroys two Bulgarian WW1 cemeteries in order to build a road.

Bulgaria:
- VMRO-BND posted a campaign video claiming they are defending 'Bulgarian culture' and showed an image of Ohrid for 1 second.
- VMRO-BND posted a campaign video saying that N. Macedonian politicians suck.
For the record, this party has gotten less than 3,50% of the votes in the last two general elections. Highly likely the result will not improve.

Just out of curiosity, how many of these provocations were you actually aware of?

 

[Brownbeard]

Only one man can solve this...

or at least his current incarnation:

This Bulgarian-Macedonian issue is starting to sound like a video starring Azis and Papi Hans.

Any Serbs here to start an argument over Bosnia? PM me.

 

[Shogun96]

I'd say you are right on point. It basically comes down to two sides arguing completely different things. It's difficult to explain to North Macedonians that "Revolutionary X identified as Bulgarian" is completely different from "Modern N. Macedonia is rightful Bulgarian clay", when they are being force-fed the opposite by both politicians, historians and media.

Heck, there was even an incident from just a few weeks ago where local N. Macedonian authorities destroyed a memorial to fallen revolutionaries that "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia and the Unification of Bulgaria", and replaced it with a new one stating that they "Died for the Freedom of Macedonia". AND, most shocking (face-palming) of all, they CHANGED the names of the revolutionaries. So, instead of having their Bulgarian last names of -OV, they now have modern N. Macedonian ending with -SKI.

I don't think anyone can deny there is a blatant falsification of history here:
View attachment 764958

Ironically, both memorials ends with a quote from Bulgarian poet Hristo Botev "He who dies for freedom is never dead". The brilliant people who replaced it were so eager to de-Bulgarify it, yet failed to recognize one of the most famous quotes from one of the most famous Bulgarians.

Extremely interesting. Thank you for sharing.
It reminds me of the history of Istria, historically mixed land of Venetians (Italians) and Croats, where both Italy and Jugoslavia tried to erase each other's history and replace it with its own. Croatia still somewhat does it but things are substantially better now.

 

[Krajzen]

We should have one 'Balkan national identities' megathread for the entire vic3 life cycle, with the topic being entirely banned from everywhere else

 

[Brownbeard]

Extremely interesting. Thank you for sharing.
It reminds me of the history of Istria, historically mixed land of Venetians (Italians) and Croats, where both Italy and Jugoslavia tried to erase each other's history and replace it with its own. Croatia still somewhat does it but things are substantially better now.

Istria is... far more complicated situation. Italian community in post-ww2 era was primarily a victim of ideologic persecution rather than ethnic. Pro-fascist elements after the end of WW2 and anyone affiliated with Italian communist party during the Tito-Stalin schism. There is still a large Italian community in Istria and the whole region is bi-lingual. In the last 30 years I am completely unaware of a single case of irredentism involving a member of Italian community who is a citizen of Croatia. We only have that Slovenian guy, Joško Joras who wants to anschluss his house to Slovenia and now and then some middle aged people on social welfare come from Trieste to live out d'Annunzios dream, get arrested, fined and expelled back to Trieste.

The only members of Italian community in Croatia and the ones near extinction are the ones nobody cares about, since they are unsuitable for map painting. In west Slavonia, around Pakrac. They lost pretty much everything at the start of Croatian independence war and the whole region never fully recovered.

 

[TonyJones]

I don't think the "Both sides..." argument solves anything. One fake inscription does not change the fact that every other country in the world agrees that Tsar Samuil is a Bulgarian Tsar. Basil the Bulgarslayer is not called Basil the Northmacedonianslayer... Wait, why are we talking about Samuil, this isn't CK3.

Either way, you cannot deny that, by pure percentage, there are far more cases, blatant cases, of North Macedonian falsifications than Bulgarian ones. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if I shared even 1/3 of the claims modern-day N. Macedonian historians make, no one in this forum will believe me.

The falsification of history has always been part of the larger anti-Bulgarian policy which continues to this day. Just to give an example, here is a comparison of the provocations both sides have made within the past year:

North Macedonia:
- A Facebook video of a Political group burning the Bulgarian flag.
- A public demonstration of a burning of a Bulgarian flag during a festival. Bonus for that same festival also showing off a chest with *ahem* male genitalia and labeled "Bulgarian vaccines".
- Vandalizing a monument in Ohrid dedicated to drowned Bulgarian tourists. (not the first time it's happened either)
- Stealing the flag from the Bulgarian embassy in Bitolya.
- Said above issue with the tombstone.
- A member of VMRO-DPMNE (second largest party in N. Macedonia) publicly stating "Bulgar-Tatars, you are all fascists and the only common history we have is that your women sold themselves to Serbian soldiers for little money".
- N. Macedonian exterior minister publicly lying that Bulgaria wants to 'steal our identity'.
- Members of the government financing a Slovenian News Agency which calls Bulgaria a Fascist state.
- Paying off foreign media to write pro-N.Macedonian/anti-Bulgarian articles. (This isn't speculation either, the government literally bragged that they've hired 'one of the best lobbying firms to help us')
BONUS: literally from this morning: N. Macedonia destroys two Bulgarian WW1 cemeteries in order to build a road.

Bulgaria:
- VMRO-BND posted a campaign video claiming they are defending 'Bulgarian culture' and showed an image of Ohrid for 1 second.
- VMRO-BND posted a campaign video saying that N. Macedonian politicians suck.
For the record, this party has gotten less than 3,50% of the votes in the last two general elections. Highly likely the result will not improve.

Just out of curiosity, how many of these provocations were you actually aware of?

There's more than one Bulgarian falsification, I just named one. There are non-Macedonians that say Samoil was Macedonian, for example George Ostrogorsky. But yeah this specific issue is irrelevant to Victoria 3, I was just stating an example of Bulgarian falsification.

I don't know who has more cases, but it's irrelevant. If both sides do it, why is one side fine to do it less?

All these you listed on both sides aren't falsifications, they are just some people hating on Bulgarians. And I mean the Bulgarian government is blocking Macedonian entry into the European Union because of history. Both sides do polotics. But the Macedonian government now, loves Bulgaria, Zaev even said we have a common history or whatever.

I was aware of some of these. Like calling old Bulgaria fascist, as in WW2. The one that was literally part of the Axis with Nazi Germany, and sent Jews in occupied lands to concentration camps. At the time, Macedonians called it fascist. It's not a new thing.

But really, all this is irrelevant. Who cares what modern idiots do. Just look at legitimate primary sources and you find the answers.

 

[JackAlNXT]

I don't know who has more cases, but it's irrelevant. If both sides do it, why is one side fine to do it less?

Because if I spend the next month insulting you five times a day, and you eventually respond by calling me a jerk; you cannot say that "both sides" are at fault.

All these you listed on both sides aren't falsifications, they are just some people hating on Bulgarians. And I mean the Bulgarian government is blocking Macedonian entry into the European Union because of history.

That is the narrative isn't it. No, it is not because of history, it is for the widespread discrimination of Macedonian Bulgarians (and Bulgaria in general). Something your media actively hides from you, or say that it is justified. If you are interested in 'both sides' shouldn't you be looking deeper into what Bulgaria's problem is?

But the Macedonian government now, loves Bulgaria

Sadly, the forum lacks a laugh-out-loud emoji. The exterior minister especially 'loves' Bulgaria. Also...

Zaev in Sofia:
- Please, Bulgarian brothers, you have to lift the veto otherwise you will increase Serbian influence in Macedonia. ;(
(literally several days later)
Zaev in Belgrade:
- I'm so happy to be visiting my Serbian brothers. This whole issue with Bulgaria has been silly.
(bonus from several weeks later)
Zaev in Greece:
- Can you guys believe that Bulgaria is single-handedly blocking us!? Who could believe that!?

Like I said: Politicians, Media and Historians are all on the same page. Policy dictates coverage and historical interpretation. Currently, the policy is: Bulgaria Bad. We will not see a breakthrough in historical analysis until this policy is removed.

Just look at legitimate primary sources and you find the answers.

Okay, lets try this a different way:
Why is it that - if a 19/20 century revolutionary says they are a Bulgarian, it is because:
- He is referencing the Bulgarian church.
- He is only mentioning other Bulgarians in his lands.
- He is only looking for Bulgarian support.
- He is referencing something completely different.
- The source could've been falsified.
- The truth is being hidden because of politics.
- Something else I'm probably forgetting...

But if they say they are a Macedonian it is:
- 100% proof that he identified as an ethnic Macedonian.

Can you, put your hand on your heart, and honestly say that there is nothing suspicious going on with this logic?

 

[Shogun96]

Istria is... far more complicated situation. Italian community in post-ww2 era was primarily a victim of ideologic persecution rather than ethnic. Pro-fascist elements after the end of WW2 and anyone affiliated with Italian communist party during the Tito-Stalin schism. There is still a large Italian community in Istria and the whole region is bi-lingual. In the last 30 years I am completely unaware of a single case of irredentism involving a member of Italian community who is a citizen of Croatia. We only have that Slovenian guy, Joško Joras who wants to anschluss his house to Slovenia and now and then some middle aged people on social welfare come from Trieste to live out d'Annunzios dream, get arrested, fined and expelled back to Trieste.

The only members of Italian community in Croatia and the ones near extinction are the ones nobody cares about, since they are unsuitable for map painting. In west Slavonia, around Pakrac. They lost pretty much everything at the start of Croatian independence war and the whole region never fully recovered.

Interesting, thank you for your input.
Just let me point out a couple of things, first is that while there is still a somewhat sizeable Italian community in Istria, it's less than 10% of what it was before the titoist expulsions, so at least for us Italians and specifically Venetians this is still a highly controversial topic, especially as many refugees settled in Veneto.

Secondly, yes, I was not specific enough. I did not mean that Croatia is intentionally pursuing ethnic cleansing or any things of this sort, it's a more silent and indirect denial of the Venetian history of the region.
Just some anecdotal examples:

the tourism board of Parenzo / Poreč doesn't even mention the Istrian exodus, not even on its Italian version. It just speaks about "great social and demographic changes".

Municipality of Pola / Pula states that the Venetian era was a time of decline for the city (extremely debatable),

the Ragusa / Dubrovnik history museum displays Italian documents written in the 15th and 16th century in the city and says they are in Latin.

In Istria tourist leaflets, the fact that the western coast of the peninsula was essentially 90% + Venetians for 1000 years is not even mentioned, and the whole thing is just called off as "Venetian heritage".

This is what I meant, and it does bother me a fair bit, being Venetian and being a major in medieval history. This info is delivered to tourists and locals who might not have their own understanding of the great history of Croatia, and therefore being fed false history.

I hope I didn't sound like an angry nationalist. I love Croatia and its history, and I am perfectly happy with our current relations and borders, I just wish our history (which is also my history as a relative of Istrian refugees) was more respected over there.

 

[TonyJones]

Because if I spend the next month insulting you five times a day, and you eventually respond by calling me a jerk; you cannot say that "both sides" are at fault.


That is the narrative isn't it. No, it is not because of history, it is for the widespread discrimination of Macedonian Bulgarians (and Bulgaria in general). Something your media actively hides from you, or say that it is justified. If you are interested in 'both sides' shouldn't you be looking deeper into what Bulgaria's problem is?


Sadly, the forum lacks a laugh-out-loud emoji. The exterior minister especially 'loves' Bulgaria. Also...

Zaev in Sofia:
- Please, Bulgarian brothers, you have to lift the veto otherwise you will increase Serbian influence in Macedonia. ;(
(literally several days later)
Zaev in Belgrade:
- I'm so happy to be visiting my Serbian brothers. This whole issue with Bulgaria has been silly.
(bonus from several weeks later)
Zaev in Greece:
- Can you guys believe that Bulgaria is single-handedly blocking us!? Who could believe that!?

Like I said: Politicians, Media and Historians are all on the same page. Policy dictates coverage and historical interpretation. Currently, the policy is: Bulgaria Bad. We will not see a breakthrough in historical analysis until this policy is removed.



Okay, lets try this a different way:
Why is it that - if a 19/20 century revolutionary says they are a Bulgarian, it is because:
- He is referencing the Bulgarian church.
- He is only mentioning other Bulgarians in his lands.
- He is only looking for Bulgarian support.
- He is referencing something completely different.
- The source could've been falsified.
- The truth is being hidden because of politics.
- Something else I'm probably forgetting...

But if they say they are a Macedonian it is:
- 100% proof that he identified as an ethnic Macedonian.

Can you, put your hand on your heart, and honestly say that there is nothing suspicious going on with this logic?

That's like saying if another guy is cheating in a race it justifies you cheating too. It doesn't, you become just as bad as the cheater.

It's not "the narrative". They've set up that history commission to establish a common history, and half the veto is about Macedonia having to accept their common history with Bulgaria. And I know what Bulgaria's problem is. They claim Macedonian history is wrong, and theirs is right. You can talk about your minority thing sure whatever, but what about how Bulgaria is treating its Macedonian population? They are unrecognised and unable to make political organisations to represent themselves without being shut down. Really though, this whole thing is irrelevant to history.

I mean the issue with Bulgaria is silly. Zaev is a Western puppet. He really wants to join the EU. And he did state all that stuff about how Macedonia and Bulgaria have a common history. He said they were only brought apart by Yugoslavia. Still though, irrelevant to history.

Some revolutionaries were actually Bulgarian identifying. Others were not. I mean your logic doesn't make much more sense. A revolutionary says "We are descendants of Alexander the Great's ancient Macedonia, a seperate nation from Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc" in one thing, but in another says "I am a Bulgarian". Must be Bulgarian!

 

[JackAlNXT]

That's like saying if another guy is cheating in a race it justifies you cheating too. It doesn't, you become just as bad as the cheater.

It's not "the narrative". They've set up that history commission to establish a common history, and half the veto is about Macedonia having to accept their common history with Bulgaria. And I know what Bulgaria's problem is. They claim Macedonian history is wrong, and theirs is right. You can talk about your minority thing sure whatever, but what about how Bulgaria is treating its Macedonian population? They are unrecognised and unable to make political organisations to represent themselves without being shut down. Really though, this whole thing is irrelevant to history.

I mean the issue with Bulgaria is silly. Zaev is a Western puppet. He really wants to join the EU. And he did state all that stuff about how Macedonia and Bulgaria have a common history. He said they were only brought apart by Yugoslavia. Still though, irrelevant to history.

Some revolutionaries were actually Bulgarian identifying. Others were not. I mean your logic doesn't make much more sense. A revolutionary says "We are descendants of Alexander the Great's ancient Macedonia, a seperate nation from Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece etc" in one thing, but in another says "I am a Bulgarian". Must be Bulgarian!

Ya know... at first you were doing a relatively good job of sounding objective and detached from politics... Aaaaaaand now you are practically repeating every single nationalist talking point. The same people that, just last reply, you referred to as 'idiots'.

Lets see:
- You used Bulgaria's fascist past as a way to deflect from North Macedonia's faults. Check.
- You used the 'both sides' arguments to dismiss falsification. Checks.
- The whole EU blockage stuff. Check.

If you want to keep repeating the same spoon-fed info that the bad Bulgar fascists want to 'steal your language and identity', that is your right. However, I am obliged to warn you that, until you and everyone around you realize what the actual problem is, you're not getting into the EU.

And since you used the 'what about Macedonians in Bulgaria' excuse, allow me to explain to you the same thing that was explained to your politicians:
For those unaware, the N. Macedonian constitutions only gives rights to recognized ethnicities that are listed in their constitution. Thus, the request is to include Macedonian Bulgarians in that list. The 'mature' response from N. Macedonian politicians has been "We will only do it if Bulgars recognize Macedonian minority!". Here's the thing: the Bulgarian constitution DOES NOT CONTAIN MINORITIES! Every citizen is granted equal rights, regardless of ethnicity. You know, like any normal country does. You are also allowed to identify as whatever ethnicity you want. Per the previous census, 1300 people have identified as Macedonian.

There are people who have identified themselves as ethnic MARCIANS and JEDI in the current census! (no, that is not a joke)

Same goes for your 'organizations'. The only reason they aren't recognized is because the constitution forbids separatist organizations. And, I don't know about you, but paying for Facebook ads that say "You are occupied by the Bulgarian fascists! Rise up!" sounds pretty separatist to me.

I'm sure it pains you to admit, but some times, one side is objectively right and one side is objectively wrong.

 

[Konq123]

There are people who have identified themselves as ethnic MARCIANS and JEDI in the current census! (no, that is not a joke)

I just want to say I identified myself as an ethnic Jedi in that census. So we might end up as bigger ethnic group than Macedonians.

 

[TonyJones]

Ya know... at first you were doing a relatively good job of sounding objective and detached from politics... Aaaaaaand now you are practically repeating every single nationalist talking point. The same people that, just last reply, you referred to as 'idiots'.

Lets see:
- You used Bulgaria's fascist past as a way to deflect from North Macedonia's faults. Check.
- You used the 'both sides' arguments to dismiss falsification. Checks.
- The whole EU blockage stuff. Check.

If you want to keep repeating the same spoon-fed info that the bad Bulgar fascists want to 'steal your language and identity', that is your right. However, I am obliged to warn you that, until you and everyone around you realize what the actual problem is, you're not getting into the EU.

And since you used the 'what about Macedonians in Bulgaria' excuse, allow me to explain to you the same thing that was explained to your politicians:
For those unaware, the N. Macedonian constitutions only gives rights to recognized ethnicities that are listed in their constitution. Thus, the request is to include Macedonian Bulgarians in that list. The 'mature' response from N. Macedonian politicians has been "We will only do it if Bulgars recognize Macedonian minority!". Here's the thing: the Bulgarian constitution DOES NOT CONTAIN MINORITIES! Every citizen is granted equal rights, regardless of ethnicity. You know, like any normal country does. You are also allowed to identify as whatever ethnicity you want. Per the previous census, 1300 people have identified as Macedonian.

There are people who have identified themselves as ethnic MARCIANS and JEDI in the current census! (no, that is not a joke)

Same goes for your 'organizations'. The only reason they aren't recognized is because the constitution forbids separatist organizations. And, I don't know about you, but paying for Facebook ads that say "You are occupied by the Bulgarian fascists! Rise up!" sounds pretty separatist to me.

I'm sure it pains you to admit, but some times, one side is objectively right and one side is objectively wrong.

- I didn't use Bulgaria's fascist past to deflect anything. I said it was fascist during WW2, not now. If Bulgaria's fascist now, so is Macedonia.
- Ok, I guess when Bulgaria falsifies it's fine. Righto. Still it's completely irrelevant.
- ? The blockage is about history, at least partially you must admit. Zaharieva was the foreign minister before, direct quotes from her: “Our concerns come from the never-ending claims for a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. The acknowledgment of Bulgarian roots would put an end to this” "We are not disputing their right for self-determination, neither their right to call their language what they like. We are ready to re-confirm the current realities, but they have to acknowledge the historical truth". She's not part of that one Bulgarian VMRO party you said before either, she's in GERB.


All minorities have rights in Macedonia. You can call yourself what you want there too. Just because Bulgarians aren't a recognised minority doesn't matter, and Zaev said he's fine to add them anyway. Don't know why you expect a mature response from politicians ha ha, especially these corrupt guys in Macedonia and Bulgaria. And wow the constitution says it. amazing. How is it in action? They are silenced, organisations shut down etc. Bulgarians claim Bulgarians in Macedonia are technically allowed to put down Bulgarian, but are heavily influenced not to. Same what Macedonians say about Macedonians in Bulgaria. You know, which makes sense seeing how Macedonian population declined on the census throughout the years.

There's a difference between separatism and right to identify and partake in your own culture.

Well yes I'm sure one side is right, but I think we have different ideas of which side that is.


Still mate, this whole thing is irrelevant to Victoria 3 time frame, you're just going on about modern politics because you don't have anything about actual history.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

Get a girlfriend, both of you.


Can we get back to proper Vic3 discussion?

 

[Brownbeard]

Interesting, thank you for your input.
Just let me point out a couple of things, first is that while there is still a somewhat sizeable Italian community in Istria, it's less than 10% of what it was before the titoist expulsions, so at least for us Italians and specifically Venetians this is still a highly controversial topic, especially as many refugees settled in Veneto.

Secondly, yes, I was not specific enough. I did not mean that Croatia is intentionally pursuing ethnic cleansing or any things of this sort, it's a more silent and indirect denial of the Venetian history of the region.
Just some anecdotal examples:

the tourism board of Parenzo / Poreč doesn't even mention the Istrian exodus, not even on its Italian version. It just speaks about "great social and demographic changes".

Municipality of Pola / Pula states that the Venetian era was a time of decline for the city (extremely debatable),

the Ragusa / Dubrovnik history museum displays Italian documents written in the 15th and 16th century in the city and says they are in Latin.

In Istria tourist leaflets, the fact that the western coast of the peninsula was essentially 90% + Venetians for 1000 years is not even mentioned, and the whole thing is just called off as "Venetian heritage".

This is what I meant, and it does bother me a fair bit, being Venetian and being a major in medieval history. This info is delivered to tourists and locals who might not have their own understanding of the great history of Croatia, and therefore being fed false history.

I hope I didn't sound like an angry nationalist. I love Croatia and its history, and I am perfectly happy with our current relations and borders, I just wish our history (which is also my history as a relative of Istrian refugees) was more respected over there.

I think this is an issue you might best debate with a member of Italian community in Croatian part of Istria.

Tbh, I am unaware of anyone self-identifying as Venetian. Istria has a very strong regional identity. Most locals see themselves as Istrian first and ethnicity second, not much difference if Croatian, Italian or others(Albanian gelato mafia).

 

[Skales]

Get a girlfriend, both of you.

No if they do the tits might distract them from this thread.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Extremely interesting. Thank you for sharing.
It reminds me of the history of Istria, historically mixed land of Venetians (Italians) and Croats, where both Italy and Jugoslavia tried to erase each other's history and replace it with its own. Croatia still somewhat does it but things are substantially better now.

Because more than 300'000 istrians (natives, not venetians) were kicked out of their ancestral homes after ww2 and replaced with croatian and bosnian settlers