How should Ninja's be represented?

[SAmaster]

A thought occurred to me- something oddly many strategy games fail to really take advantage of is the real historical ninja's of Japan. Samurai will likely be well represented through the estates and special units, and perhaps a few events. I hope Japanese Castles will be portrayed as a unique building, since there are several things that set them apart from European ones. I don't think it needs overpowered bonuses, just different ones than a european castle would provide.

What's great about Ninja's however is how they not only capture the imagination, but were very much real figures, even if most of their reputation comes from legend, though this was purposefully stoked at the time. They are something that I don't think would be adequately portrayed with just a bonus to espionage. I think ideally in some way that the Hidden Ninja Villages should be portrayed. Perhaps not as a unique building, though that would be awesome, since as the demand for Ninja's dried up, these Hidden Ninja Villages went away (or rather- turned back into normal villages). A vassal type relationship would be kinda cool, but honestly there wouldn't be too much for them to do, since the ability to raise an army kind of defeats the point of them.

I think ideally in the appropriate era (the Sengoku Jidai) Japanese tags should have the ability to fund the creation of Ninja Villages and clans (while this was exaggerated, it was a real thing that did occur, even if by the nature of their secrecy the inner workings are unknown), which can give enhanced espionage, perhaps even unique espionage actions (I'm imagining this more as a set of decisions or choices in events, than a new option in the espionage screen). There should also be events that reference how many Ninja were Samurai that had gone undercover as well, perhaps in the form of characters in the court becoming Ninja advisors?

For some real 'out there' ideas, it'd be really cool if perhaps there was an ability to form a Ninja tag- in the same way that Tsushima in EUIV could become the Wokou Pirates (on a separate note, I hope the Wokou have several tags across the Japanese islands representing them). But this should be a difficult thing unlikely to be seen in the average campaign if it was included.

Anyway I hope that that there's ninja content in Japan either on release or an upcoming patch, I do think it's an integral part of Japanese history that players would want to work with.

 

[Fawr]

Based on previous flavour diaries I suspect it will be +10% infantry combat power. (I hope its more interesting)

 

[Briloner]

if more than just events and modifiers - I would go for building-based countries

the same for some groups of Japanese monks, who were more military orders with land attached.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

I dont think they should be a separate /normal tag. Normal tag should be a state or tribe and ninja villages really dont fit the bill in my opinion.

Special units dont seem to fit either as that would imply a presence on the battlefield in organised units.

Maybe they can be an ABC (i dont quite know how these work yet) or a non map diplomatic entity that allows for special diplomatic actions.

I like the idea of japansese tags constructing buildings (ninja village) that would enable these diplomatic actions.

I feel like these would be more appropriate and more interesting.

 

[MalcolmZeta]

A thought occurred to me- something oddly many strategy games fail to really take advantage of is the real historical ninja's of Japan. Samurai will likely be well represented through the estates and special units, and perhaps a few events. I hope Japanese Castles will be portrayed as a unique building, since there are several things that set them apart from European ones. I don't think it needs overpowered bonuses, just different ones than a european castle would provide.

What's great about Ninja's however is how they not only capture the imagination, but were very much real figures, even if most of their reputation comes from legend, though this was purposefully stoked at the time. They are something that I don't think would be adequately portrayed with just a bonus to espionage. I think ideally in some way that the Hidden Ninja Villages should be portrayed. Perhaps not as a unique building, though that would be awesome, since as the demand for Ninja's dried up, these Hidden Ninja Villages went away (or rather- turned back into normal villages). A vassal type relationship would be kinda cool, but honestly there wouldn't be too much for them to do, since the ability to raise an army kind of defeats the point of them.

I think ideally in the appropriate era (the Sengoku Jidai) Japanese tags should have the ability to fund the creation of Ninja Villages and clans (while this was exaggerated, it was a real thing that did occur, even if by the nature of their secrecy the inner workings are unknown), which can give enhanced espionage, perhaps even unique espionage actions (I'm imagining this more as a set of decisions or choices in events, than a new option in the espionage screen). There should also be events that reference how many Ninja were Samurai that had gone undercover as well, perhaps in the form of characters in the court becoming Ninja advisors?

For some real 'out there' ideas, it'd be really cool if perhaps there was an ability to form a Ninja tag- in the same way that Tsushima in EUIV could become the Wokou Pirates (on a separate note, I hope the Wokou have several tags across the Japanese islands representing them). But this should be a difficult thing unlikely to be seen in the average campaign if it was included.

Anyway I hope that that there's ninja content in Japan either on release or an upcoming patch, I do think it's an integral part of Japanese history that players would want to work with.

Ninjas were not magical shadow warriors as portrayed in Hollywood movies— they were poor people (farmers), criminals or outcasts who were hired ad hoc, for whatever thing thst was needed. Usually spying on enemy position, sometimes sabotage, sometimes gorrila warfare, for whoever could pay, filling the intelligence gap that honor-bound samurai didn't want (or rather were forbiden) to do.
The need for them ceased to exist around the time of unification since the daimyo wars ended and they weren't needed.
Every culture had similar people doing exactly the same thing, so a part from romanticized (and usually wrong) Hollywood portrayal of them, I see no other reason why they should be something unique, unit wise or agent wise in the game.

 

[Nostalgium]

While "ninja villages" did develop out of peasant leagues defending themselves against wartime abuses, they were pretty much the opposite of secret. They were renowned for the training the shinobi from those specific areas had (IIRC the Iga region had ones famously good at sieges), and Daimyo sought out and hired their services like any other mercs, just in a different field. And they were sieged and occupied like any other village or town if they became a thorn in anyone's side, like Nobunaga's.

If they have to be represented (I agree with @MalcolmZeta's argument for why they shouldn't be, BTW - they were basically spies and sappers, which every warring country ever has employed), it should at most be as a privilege that strengthens your Peasant Estate and gives you a slight buff to some espionage-related things.

 

[Blust]

I love those "it really existed although it was a legend" and "it did happened but I'm exagerating", it really makes your point so much more solid. Joke asides I don't think they need anything, just have some cute events and that'll be enough

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

I see more of an opportunity to create something more suitable for everyone, since ninjas were only a regional phenomenon with very general specialties, but general culture has favored them.
One could go for class privileges; one could increase the efficiency of espionage or siege capabilities, while another could be for counterintelligence. Watchmen aren't as new as they once were; even innkeepers were among the most effective in these cases. On the other hand perhaps it should be possible to allow the creation of "mercenary companies", basically they would be as strong as the levies, but having superior siege capacity, to demonstrate the first sappers and saboteurs, it would be a cheaper way to get siege, even later in the game they could disappear to make way for professional sapper units, although you can also leave some mercenary companies of better equipped sappers in the areas where they continued to be used, in the end this could be something of a double-edged sword, since if you establish them in your territory you would give your enemies the opportunity to hire them against you, which with time will increasingly incentivize to undo those camps, just as happened to the ninjas some time after Japan was finally unified

 

[lazprune]

They are portrayed as artists as part of the Italian Renaissance flavor.

 

[jimfinbinlin]

That's the fun part, they shouldn't.

 

[SAmaster]

if more than just events and modifiers - I would go for building-based countries

the same for some groups of Japanese monks, who were more military orders with land attached.

A BBC would be fun, I just dont know what they'd do.

I dont think they should be a separate /normal tag. Normal tag should be a state or tribe and ninja villages really dont fit the bill in my opinion.

Special units dont seem to fit either as that would imply a presence on the battlefield in organised units.

Maybe they can be an ABC (i dont quite know how these work yet) or a non map diplomatic entity that allows for special diplomatic actions.

I like the idea of japansese tags constructing buildings (ninja village) that would enable these diplomatic actions.

I feel like these would be more appropriate and more interesting.

I thought about it some more- how about a peasantry estate privilege that let's them build hidden villages? This could give them more power in exchange for 'ninja powers' and would make sense why you might dismantle them in peacetime- you dont want the peasants getting uppity.

 

[Froonk]

While I don't know much about ninjas in particular, I do think that the game should lean more into representing espionage and sabotage whether in diplomacy or warfare. In general, the aspects of state, diplomacy and warfare in relation to flow of information and covert operations as well as their importance is vastly underrepresented. It was absolutely crucial and often in flux, sometimes even decisive. In that regard, since all countries get meme-bonuses about things that are recognizable about them in popular culture (and many things in popular culture are not very accurate) then I don't see any reason why Japan couldn't get espionage and sabotage related bonuses in some of their advances also.

 

[SAmaster]

Thinking on it some more- I do think it being an estate privilege for the peasantry works best. I don't know what it would be labeled as, but it should probably be unlocked in the corresponding age for Japanese cultured nations, that allows the commoners estate to build the 'Hidden Villages' in the same way that castle rights let the nobility build castles.

Such an estate probably increases loyalty (despite their reputation, historical ninja's never turned on their masters) but increases the power of the peasantry to a degree that it makes sense to remove the privilege in peacetime (as after unification, they were left without a purpose, and simply reintegrated into normal life)- unless you wanted to go for a meme run. Maybe even an event lets you remove the privilege easier if you have successfully unified Japan (though again- you could keep it if that's your plan). And again, I think more of the flavor could come from espionage events for Japanese tags with the privilge, or extra options in such events. Some of this should probably also be limited so we don't get events of like Ninja's infiltrating French castles if the Japanese seize them. Or maybe we want that- that would be a step too much for me. But basically I think a lot of the interactions should be limited to Japanese culture provinces.

As for the construction of the 'Hidden Villages' they would probably be restricted to rural or town provinces. Perhaps restricted to hills or mountains, most were in small mountain valleys. I can't think of a direct buff that they might grant, and perhaps they even result in slight debuffs like increased autonomy- another reason why someone might remove the privilege in peacetime. Rather than needing to root out such villages, they probably just delete themselves after five years with the privilege no longer active (as they just went back to being normal towns).

I think the only other thing is a potential Meme formable. But that might be better left to a mod. Perhaps a 'Ninja Peasant Republic?' Though that's probably way more outlandish than something like the pirate takeover of Tsushima.

 

[Will Steel]

From most sources, their main work (done on behalf of whoever paid them) was -

- spying on targets
- carrying secret communication securely across prohibited/difficult lines of travel
- stealing important stuff
- directly forcing information out from targets or their associates
- kidnapping (rare)
- assassination, usually military related (and even more rare)
- sabotage and counter-sabotage, usually military related (often in sieges)
- incitement of peasants into rebellions
- incitement of betrayal and rebellion among target's vassals and retainers
- intimidation of targets
- rescue kidnapped hostages
- hidden elite bodyguards in case a noble's normal bodyguards got compromised/castle got breached (rare)
- counterespionage - i.e. preventing everything above against rival ninjas
- regular mercenary work in the military

If you look closely, almost half of that is kinda already in EU games. This is more of a CK3 domain - in which it would be an excellent feature now that Japan is there, compared to EU5 where some of these things are already featured as regular parts of gameplay in other ways (military/diplomacy actions), or don't matter too much (like stealing something) due to the nation-state focus of the game.

Probably, a 'ninja' in EU5 would not be much more than a courtier IMO, simply enabled with a special ninja-village building, and just with high skills and a few organization-based actions that other courtiers don't have. (like giving them a cabinet position and ordering them to kidnap/assassinate an enemy general or destroy a building somewhere or start a peasant rebellion or steal money or maps... that's the only use I can think of, and most of these either don't change that much or can be done already via diplomacy/military)

Plus a lot of them basically lived as normal Samurai retainers that they were anyway (Hattori Hanzo was a Samurai and a general and later a feudal lord himself), since most of these Ninja clans were composed of impoverished village-farmer Samurai or moderately wealthy peasant veterans of wars. Even by the 18th century, Japanese of the Tokugawa Shogunate considered them mostly fun pop culture legend for the purpose of making stories and art, since they had long turned into regular Samurai nobles or disappeared into obscurity to take up other work with the returning centuries of peace.

...And it is not like they were that unique from the rest of the world.

- Popular king of France was shot by an assassin while waiting on street in a carriage traffic jam created by his own equally famous wife's coronation ceremony that he had arranged earlier.
- Italian city states famously continued with the cloak and dagger thing that they had going on since the days of the Romans. From Pazzi Conspiracy to return of the Medici to whatever the Popes did.
- Romans themselves did not stop the cloak and dagger thing against each other even in their last days.
- Mughal Empire of India had multiple episodes of the imperial dynasty and courts and governors and ministers trying to spy, kidnap and assassinate each other.
- Ottoman dynasty and the court fell into the same trap at roughly the same time, and unlike Indians they remained there for centuries.
- Someone incited the Dutch and they got so ass mad that they ate their own prime minister.

 

[SAmaster]

If you look closely, almost half of that is kinda already in EU games. This is more of a CK3 domain - in which it would be an excellent feature now that Japan is there, compared to EU5 where some of these things are already featured as regular parts of gameplay in other ways (military/diplomacy actions), or don't matter too much (like stealing something) due to the nation-state focus of the game.

The problem being Ninja's weren't a thing in CK3's timeframe, but specific to the Sengoku Jidai period, and to a lesser extent conflicts that occurred afterwards until Japan's isolation.

Probably, a 'ninja' in EU5 would not be much more than a courtier IMO, simply enabled with a special ninja-village building, and just with high skills and a few organization-based actions that other courtiers don't have. (like giving them a cabinet position and ordering them to kidnap/assassinate an enemy general or destroy a building somewhere or start a peasant rebellion or steal money or maps... that's the only use I can think of, and most of these either don't change that much or can be done already via diplomacy/military)

Generating courtiers that can aid in espionage is a good idea, and there are several historical ninja's people would love to see- such as the famed Hattori Hanzo.

Plus a lot of them basically lived as normal Samurai retainers that they were anyway (Hattori Hanzo was a Samurai and a general and later a feudal lord himself), since most of these Ninja clans were composed of impoverished village-farmer Samurai or moderately wealthy peasant veterans of wars. Even by the 18th century, Japanese of the Tokugawa Shogunate considered them mostly fun pop culture legend for the purpose of making stories and art, since they had long turned into regular Samurai nobles or disappeared into obscurity to take up other work with the returning centuries of peace.

Certainly the transition from Samurai to Ninja should be represented in some way.

...And it is not like they were that unique from the rest of the world.

- Popular king of France was shot by an assassin while waiting on street in a carriage traffic jam created by his own equally famous wife's coronation ceremony that he had arranged earlier.
- Italian city states famously continued with the cloak and dagger thing that they had going on since the days of the Romans. From Pazzi Conspiracy to return of the Medici to whatever the Popes did.
- Romans themselves did not stop the cloak and dagger thing against each other even in their last days.
- Mughal Empire of India had multiple episodes of the imperial dynasty and courts and governors and ministers trying to spy, kidnap and assassinate each other.
- Ottoman dynasty and the court fell into the same trap at roughly the same time, and unlike Indians they remained there for centuries.
- Someone incited the Dutch and they got so ass mad that they ate their own prime minister.

While certainly everyone did espionage, not everyone had such an institution built around them, nor feature so prominently in their cultural legacy. Closest analogue would be the Hashishan and if they were in the game I'd argue for them to get similar sorts of mechanics.

I'm not arguing that Ninja's should completely change the meta or anything like that. While perhaps more skilled than the average spy, they weren't some great game-changer in international diplomacy. I'm just saying I want it to be represented in the game. Because it'd be fun. And cool.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Ninjas shouldn't be represented but under the caveat I would like to see more things you can do with spy networks and espionage.

Spy networks and the growth of information travel is a huge theme of the era that currently doesn't have much representation.

Ninjas could be a very small part of that but definitely not the focus. More spy based fun pleeasseee

 

[Will Steel]

Ninjas shouldn't be represented but under the caveat I would like to see more things you can do with spy networks and espionage.

Spy networks and the growth of information travel is a huge theme of the era that currently doesn't have much representation.

Ninjas could be a very small part of that but definitely not the focus. More spy based fun pleeasseee

100%.

Given that EU games feature "nation builds" (kinda like how CK do with "character builds" like RPG games), a 'spy build' gameplay for EU5 would be really fun to play if they can pull it off.

We already have sesen (at least on paper) multiple varieties of religious builds, economic builds, martial builds, tech/education builds, expansion/colonial builds, cosmopolitan/humanist builds, civic national state builds, mercenary/pirate builds, and so on.

Would love to see an intrigue build added on that list, one that is all about spying, manipulating, blackmailing, stealing (tech/maps/money), causing proxy-wars, secretly affecting social and military outcomes of events and other countries, and so on.

If Ninjas have to be represented at all, this is the 'build' their gameplay would usually go around. (the other would be Switzerland/mercenary run, like Ronins who fled to Thailand/Sakhalin and actually became powerful and such)

 

[Ivashanko]

100%.

Given that EU games feature "nation builds" (kinda like how CK do with "character builds" like RPG games), a 'spy build' gameplay for EU5 would be really fun to play if they can pull it off.

We already have sesen (at least on paper) multiple varieties of religious builds, economic builds, martial builds, tech/education builds, expansion/colonial builds, cosmopolitan/humanist builds, civic national state builds, mercenary/pirate builds, and so on.

Would love to see an intrigue build added on that list, one that is all about spying, manipulating, blackmailing, stealing (tech/maps/money), causing proxy-wars, secretly affecting social and military outcomes of events and other countries, and so on.

If Ninjas have to be represented at all, this is the 'build' their gameplay would usually go around. (the other would be Switzerland/mercenary run, like Ronins who fled to Thailand/Sakhalin and actually became powerful and such)

I'll go in the other, most likely much less popular, direction and state I dislike how nearly all Paradox games handle espionage. With the exception of CK, they're rarely balanced, never integrated, and often extraneous.

I personally am fine if there is no espionage mechanic in EU5.

 

[peteoj]

I think they should be mercenary companies you can hire.

 

[MalcolmZeta]

I'll go in the other, most likely much less popular, direction and state I dislike how nearly all Paradox games handle espionage. With the exception of CK, they're rarely balanced, never integrated, and often extraneous.

I personally am fine if there is no espionage mechanic in EU5.

Well I didn't like EU IV spy mechanic either, it was lacking, but at the same time, removing it all together would be a move in the wrong direction. I hope they keep it and improve on it, and maybe dedicate a dlc to it, so it's polished marvel that makes spy nation build possible and nost importantly fun.

Yeah ninjas as most people know were hollywood invention, a fairytale that didnt resemble what they were in reality. BUT if the spy mechanics are there and they are polished and improved, it would make me want to role play as one of those Ninja Villages, expand through Spyfare rather than warfare or economic domination. Or to role play as the Hashshashins order, lurking in the shadows. That would be really fun, wouldn't you agree? Maybe even play as a secret society (Illuminati style organisation) and take countrole of nations (with IOs and BBCs mechanic), where you could secretly build your shadow empire without actually directly owning land, but rather controlling their rulers like puppets.

I know I'm moving into mod territory here, but oh boy would this be fun.