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Doomdark

Chief Creative Officer
Paradox Staff
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Apr 3, 2000
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  • Sword of the Stars II
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  • Victoria: Revolutions
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Hey folks, it is dev diary day and time to talk a bit about rebels and adventurers! Let's start off with the rebels; as you know, the old rebels are a nuisance but they are easily defeated and even if they hold a county for a long time, defection is rare. Sure, they sometimes kill a local ruler, but even that is uncommon. This is a shame, especially since we have explored better ways of handling rebels in the In Nomine expansion to Europa Universalis III and in Victoria II. So, for The Old Gods, we are replacing the old simplistic system with proper rebels with a cause (if you don't have the expansion, you will be stuck with the old system.) There are three new types of rebels: peasants, heretics and "liberators". As before, they can appear if the revolt risk is higher than 0 in a county. If the county is of a heretic religion, heretic rebels may appear. If the county is in a kingdom occupied by foreigners, liberators may rise up. If the other two types are not suitable, it's going to be a peasant revolt.

CKII_ToG_DD_06_Peasant_Revolt.jpg

The new types of rebels all have a leader with a temporary title. They start at war with the ruler of the realm in which they appear, but they are hostile to everyone. Fighting them is like fighting a normal war; you get war score for crushing their army. If peasant or heretic rebels win, the county will be taken and becomes independent under their leader. Liberators are more dangerous; they tend to rise up with the best and largest forces, and they are after the entire de jure kingdom. However, they typically tend to settle for a few counties and the title to the kingdom itself. The system is fully moddable and it is pretty straightforward to add new rebel types.

CKII_ToG_DD_06_Claimant_Adventure.jpg

This brings us to adventurers. The concept is quite similar to the rebels, but adventures are started by existing characters and can target distant lands. There are two main types; claimants with no titles who stand to inherit nothing, and men of major dynasties with no claims but high martial and diplomatic skill. In both cases, the adventurer lets it be known that he is starting an adventure and gathering a host (both his current liege(s) and the target ruler are notified). After a year or two, he is given a temporary duchy title, an army, and a fleet. War is declared, and he goes after the target. Claimants, of course, will try to press their claim, but the other type simply target a juicy duchy somewhere and go off to seize it (like the d'Hautevilles took southern Italy). A savvy player who is targetted may of course assassinate the adventurer before he arrives with his army... Characters of certain cultures are more likely to go off on claimless adventures, e.g. Normans and Norse.

CKII_ToG_DD_06_Conquest_Adventure.jpg

Speaking of Norse and Norman, another thing I believe we haven't mentioned yet are the new cultures we've added: Norse, Bolghar, Khazar, Mordvin, Samoyed and Avar. In 867, all Scandinavians are of the Norse culture, but there are events that will initiate a split into Swedish, Danish and Norwegian. Independent Norse rulers outside Scandinavia will not be affected. Determined players can also choose to stay Norse and attempt to educate children of vassals to stick to this culture. Similarly, there are events for the appearance of Norman culture, which is formed by Norse conquerors in Frankish, Breton or Occitan lands. (Yes, we could have done this for any number of cultures in the game, but it is quite a lot of work. It is, of course, also fully moddable.)

CKII_ToG_DD_06_Cultural_Divergence.jpg

That sums it up for today! Next Wednesday will see the last dev diary for The Old Gods expansion and will feature the new technology system and what other tidbits remain.

Bonus, in case you missed it ;)

Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods Video Dev Diary 2 - Rebels
[video=youtube;eo7ttCKInYM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo7ttCKInYM[/video]

 
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Are heretics only literal heretic religions or any religion under a different religion leader? Also will say a cathar province under a muslim ruler spawn heretics?

Heretics for the realm lord.

Am I correct in assuming you can avoid liberator rebels by not forming the kingdom title?

No, they can still appear if the kingdom has ever existed.

What affects whether a claimant tries his luck, just random?

Mostly random, but his attributes and traits have an effect.

Are those armies bigger than we are used to?

They are bigger than the old rebels, but rarer.
 
So, who's eligible target for liberators? E.g. If I were king of Norway and England, will English liberators be possible? What if I were kaiser and king of Italy, would Italian liberator be eligible? What if king of Italy were my vassal? And: what about e.g. Lotharingians, etc.?

Next thing: if liberators win, they become independent, right? Not vassals of some emperor?

Yes, yes, as long as someone holds the kingdom, or it has ever existed, and the rebels rise in a province of the corresponding culture. If they win, they become independent.
 
It has ever existed within the span of the game, or within the title history? For example, at the 1066 start, could someone try and liberate the Kingdom of Italy?

In the title history. There has to be a precedent for the rebels to try to create the kingdom
 
What happens if your capital has revolt chance above 0? Will the rebels take that in case of a revolt and start a war with you and what happens to your capital if so?

Yes, you could lose your capital that way.
 
There is still no chance then that you will fill out the kingdom of Ireland title history, even if you exclude any playable characters for the 867 start date, just to make those liberation rebellions possible?

Yes.

Are the liberators always new characters, or can they be ousted dynasties?

They are new characters.
 
So, is it confirmed that the rebellion mechanic will be for TOG-owners only, like was said in the video dev diary?
I certainly hope not, as it sounds like a major balancing mechanic, and one that will cause significant differences between campaigns with and without it.
And hey, surely pagans and the 867 start should be plenty to sell the DLC?
 
It's in the OP.
From what I can see it is never mentioned in the OP whether the feature will the TOG-only or not.
The closest would be "So, for The Old Gods, we are replacing the old simplistic system", but that could mean either the DLC or in the patch alongside it.
 
It's DLC only, says in the video.
As my question said: "So, is it confirmed that the rebellion mechanic will be for TOG-owners only, like was said in the video dev diary?"

Because frankly, keeping such a mechanic DLC-only is a terrible idea.
It means that either Paradox will have to try to balance the game around both it being and not being present, or balance the game around only it being present, making people who don't own the DLC worse off, and essentially reducing the worth of the balance feedback of a considerable part of the community.
This is quite similar to how retinues are limited to Legacy of Rome owners only. Retinues make rebelling vassals much easier to deal with, and is a mechanic that republics are seemingly built around as they have trade post and family palace buildings that give retinues. So someone might have an entirely different opinion on how strong republics are based on them owning or not owning an unrelated piece of DLC.

Maybe I am reading that wrong, but it seems to answer the question.
Ah, I didn't see the later bit somehow.
Still, terrible idea :/
 
Because frankly, keeping such a mechanic DLC-only is a terrible idea.
It means that either Paradox will have to try to balance the game around both it being and not being present, or balance the game around only it being present, making people who don't own the DLC worse off, and essentially reducing the worth of the balance feedback of a considerable part of the community.
This is quite similar to how retinues are limited to Legacy of Rome owners only. Retinues make rebelling vassals much easier to deal with, and is a mechanic that republics are seemingly built around as they have trade post and family palace buildings that give retinues. So someone might have an entirely different opinion on how strong republics are based on them owning or not owning an unrelated piece of DLC.
To elaborate on one of the reasons why I think it is such a bad idea to limit the new rebellion mechanics to DLC-owners only:
It will essentially make my mod considerably worse for anyone not using the DLC. My goal is historical plausibility, and all mechanics affect this in some way. As a result I'll be balancing around the new rebellion mechanic being there, giving an experience as expected for people who own the DLC.
People who don't own the DLC however, will end up playing a mod based around a mechanic they do not have. Historical plausibility will as a result be off the mark as it was based on tests with this mechanic. The mod will therefore be worse than it should've been for these people.

The exact same thing applies to vanilla. Presumably Paradox will be balancing and tweaking things based on this mechanic being in place. The balancing will therefore be off for people who don't own the DLC. A particularly good example of this is Legacy of Rome; if you don't have it there won't be any retinues, and as a result merchant republics will be quite a bit weaker than they are with the DLC, as they have buildings that are supposed to give them retinues.

And of course, surely the 867 start and Pagans should be plenty to sell the DLC without tying major balancing mechanics to it as well.
 
They'll showcase it next week and probably mention if it's DLC only, but I very much doubt it.
Until they said the new rebellion feature was DLC-only I very much doubted that to be the case.
So you never know.
 
But it's different: maintaining the old type of rebels will not cost them much effort, while two tech systems would. Both would need to be updated with any tech changes done in later updates.
I believe they've done what, one change to tech so far? Two if you count one minor bug fix they did once.
So maintenance doesn't seem to be an issue ;)
 
You can uncheck the new DLC in the launcher and play without it.
And unless Paradox has a way for me to clone myself, I do not have the time to spend testing two versions of the game. Testing one version already takes a lot of time.
And obviously, this is a problem that will face Paradox as well. Either they'll try to balance both versions, making each of them worse than if it'd been focused. Or they'll try to balance only the DLC, in which case vanilla will suffer for it.
 
Sorry for my litle rant. Its supposed to be less of a rant than a solidarity call. ;)
I will buy the DLC based on first reports after a few days and how well done the patch is going to be.
I've even pre-ordered the DLC already, but I think separating the mechanic out into DLC is a major issue, and especially for modders.
I know I want to use it in my mod to improve the experience, and I imagine a lot of other modders want to do that as well. As only part of the user-base will have the DLC though, mods that utilize the feature will essentially be worse for a large part of the userbase, which is a real shame.
 
Paradox tried doing a "you get everything except the ability to use the group in question!" when they made Sword of Islam. Since then, all the major DLCs have had other gameplay features to incentivise buying them even if you don't care about playing the group focused on. There is presumably a good reason for that.
867 start should cover that base plenty though, surely.
And The Republic didn't include any gameplay features.
Is there a gameplay feature in the Republic other than the ability to play a patrician?
Nope.