Battlemage nerf

[aerothgow]

I'm really curious to see why the battlemages got nerfed. They were big time inferior to ranged units and their only gimmick was the phase teleport but now that's also gone.
Archers also got big buff with the new tomes.
Enchanted ranged armies are op and yet the battlemages that were kinda garbage (with the exeption of the awakeres) got nerfed into the dirt.

The mystic race that had a weak mage in the spellbreaker now basicly has no t3.
Seems like Mystics joins Feudal for most garbage cultures. I don't know where you get your balance numbers but they were off.

 

[MartyD81]

Yeah, I am wondering this too.

 

[Blanch Warren]

With an addition archer available, you're presumably expected to pick one and mix things up.

 

[Smirg]

I can imagine a thought process kind of like this:

- Previously it was easy to circumvent the front line with the ubiquitous Unicorn meta or phase beasts, which were nerfed. The teleporting spirits are now Large Target and thus theoretically a bit easier to get rid of before they can teleport in as well.

- Therefore, back lines are safer, and to compensate, they must be easier to attack by other means. Therefore less hit points for all of them.

- Those other means include spells and AoEs, which target Resistance, so reduce Resistance as well on Battlemages (Archers already have poor resistance).

- Golems are no longer immune to all status effects, so Battlemages like White Witches or Pyromancers have become a bit more effective, so even more reason to nerf them more than archers.

Not saying it is a good or rational though process - I too think that Battlemages were on the weaker side of unit types - it is just what I can imagine someone was thinking, on the assumption that previously they were perfectly valid units (which they weren't, except maybe Transmuter).


Edit: Though the ability to attack from a protected backline position may be worth more now as it is indeed better protected. Especially against AI which is probably worse at circumventing the front line than human players are, despite the changed AI targeting priorities and supposedly more consistent formations in Golem (assuming they work as intended).
So they might be worth more in AI vs AI battles, which may be relevant for multiplayer as well? Just a guess.

In any case, the big fallacy in that assumption is that archers, with their Tome upgrades, are just plain better offensively than Battlemages. So it might be less Battlemages being too weak but more archers being too strong (again)...
But I couldn't play yet, so no idea how AI battles work yet.

 

[Astronlmo]

I can imagine a thought process kind of like this:

- Previously it was easy to circumvent the front line with the ubiquitous Unicorn meta or phase beasts, which were nerfed. The teleporting spirits are now Large Target and thus theoretically a bit easier to get rid of before they can teleport in as well.

- Therefore, back lines are safer, and to compensate, they must be easier to attack by other means. Therefore less hit points for all of them.

- Those other means include spells and AoEs, which target Resistance, so reduce Resistance as well on Battlemages (Archers already have poor resistance).

- Golems are no longer immune to all status effects, so Battlemages like White Witches or Pyromancers have become a bit more effective, so even more reason to nerf them more than archers.

Not saying it is a good or rational though process - I too think that Battlemages were on the weaker side of unit types - it is just what I can imagine someone was thinking, on the assumption that previously they were perfectly valid units (which they weren't, except maybe Transmuter).


Edit: Though the ability to attack from a protected backline position may be worth more now as it is indeed better protected. Especially against AI which is probably worse at circumventing the front line than human players are, despite the changed AI targeting priorities and supposedly more consistent formations in Golem (assuming they work as intended).
So they might be worth more in AI vs AI battles, which may be relevant for multiplayer as well? Just a guess.

In any case, the big fallacy in that assumption is that archers, with their Tome upgrades, are just plain better offensively than Battlemages. So it might be less Battlemages being too weak but more archers being too strong (again)...
But I couldn't play yet, so no idea how AI battles work yet.

I can confirm, that AI on brutal is constantly flanking. And it became extremely annoying to deal with. It also focuses units if they have no chances to win the fight.

 

[STARSDragoon]

As far as i undrstand the mp crowd, ranged got really eak with watcher. Battlemages were superior since then and the change to phasing makes battlemages stronger since unicornknights and phasebeasts cant deal with them as easy now. So they got their nerf too.

 

[Astronlmo]

It's also a nerf in comparison to tier 4 and 5 units.

To be fair, the power spike was huge before watcher, then there was a unicorn blink knights, obliterating everything. Now, all mythic units are truly mythic in comparison.

Plus, don't forget, that the armor has diminishing returns. Buffing mythic units would require them to have 20+ armor, which makes sundering against them pretty useless.

The idea is correct. So far the implementation is correct, but more testing is needed. And not in the same BS as before, but from other angles and with mythic/unit buffs in mind.

 

[Astronlmo]

Btw.

There were no direct nerf to battlemages.

Triumph simply replaced random numbers with tier based resistence. Now each tier above 1 gives +1 armor and resistance. Plus bonus to some specific types.
As for Ranged vs Battlemages. Don't forget, that all, I mean ALL, constructs and some other enemies got Reinforged. They have +4 armor against physical ranged attacks. Thus it makes ranged units less efficient against them, while battlemages ignore that.

 

[aerothgow]

As far as i undrstand the mp crowd, ranged got really eak with watcher. Battlemages were superior since then and the change to phasing makes battlemages stronger since unicornknights and phasebeasts cant deal with them as easy now. So they got their nerf too.

100% no. nobody used battlemages in MP only awakeners for awakiening and cav archers on unicorns.

 

[aerothgow]

I can imagine a thought process kind of like this:

- Previously it was easy to circumvent the front line with the ubiquitous Unicorn meta or phase beasts, which were nerfed. The teleporting spirits are now Large Target and thus theoretically a bit easier to get rid of before they can teleport in as well.

- Therefore, back lines are safer, and to compensate, they must be easier to attack by other means. Therefore less hit points for all of them.

- Those other means include spells and AoEs, which target Resistance, so reduce Resistance as well on Battlemages (Archers already have poor resistance).

- Golems are no longer immune to all status effects, so Battlemages like White Witches or Pyromancers have become a bit more effective, so even more reason to nerf them more than archers.

Not saying it is a good or rational though process - I too think that Battlemages were on the weaker side of unit types - it is just what I can imagine someone was thinking, on the assumption that previously they were perfectly valid units (which they weren't, except maybe Transmuter).


Edit: Though the ability to attack from a protected backline position may be worth more now as it is indeed better protected. Especially against AI which is probably worse at circumventing the front line than human players are, despite the changed AI targeting priorities and supposedly more consistent formations in Golem (assuming they work as intended).
So they might be worth more in AI vs AI battles, which may be relevant for multiplayer as well? Just a guess.

In any case, the big fallacy in that assumption is that archers, with their Tome upgrades, are just plain better offensively than Battlemages. So it might be less Battlemages being too weak but more archers being too strong (again)...
But I couldn't play yet, so no idea how AI battles work yet.

The units that benefited the most from phase were cavalarly archers on unicorns not battlemages. Battlemages have very garbage damage and their aoe do not scale well. They are really bad units.

 

[aerothgow]

Btw.

There were no direct nerf to battlemages.

Triumph simply replaced random numbers with tier based resistence. Now each tier above 1 gives +1 armor and resistance. Plus bonus to some specific types.
As for Ranged vs Battlemages. Don't forget, that all, I mean ALL, constructs and some other enemies got Reinforged. They have +4 armor against physical ranged attacks. Thus it makes ranged units less efficient against them, while battlemages ignore that.

Nobody will build around archers or battlemages they are early and mid game only. Late game is a t4,t5 spam. Only build around ranged was unicorn archers that kept kiting but that's dead now.

 

[aerothgow]

I can confirm, that AI on brutal is constantly flanking. And it became extremely annoying to deal with. It also focuses units if they have no chances to win the fight.

AI has very hard as a maximum difficulty. It did that before this patch also. The AI would always try to flank if it had movement to flank and hit in the same turn. If it only had movement to flank it would not flank and sit behind it's own units.

 

[aerothgow]

The game has amazing and a big array of buffs for archers and they are on low tier tomes and higher tier tomes. Battlemages have kinda meh enchantments and they all come online later.
This is the prime reason battlemages will never compete with archers. They needed a base unit buff but instead got a nerf, and yes it's a nerf. A direct nerf.

 

[Astronlmo]

AI has very hard as a maximum difficulty. It did that before this patch also. The AI would always try to flank if it had movement to flank and hit in the same turn. If it only had movement to flank it would not flank and sit behind it's own units.

Yes, but they updated it's behavior and now they try to focus easy targets and trap your units and bombard them (that's mostly for 3vs3 armies), especially dark culture with their dark knights.

 

[aerothgow]

Yes, but they updated it's behavior and now they try to focus easy targets and trap your units and bombard them (that's mostly for 3vs3 armies), especially dark culture with their dark knights.

If they do that then battlemages are double nerfed.

 

[Astronlmo]

Nobody will build around archers or battlemages they are early and mid game only. Late game is a t4,t5 spam. Only build around ranged was unicorn archers that kept kiting but that's dead now.

Idk where you get that much of imperium for 3/4 armies full of t4/t5 units. If you are talking about multiplayer, then who cares, there will always be some cookie cutter crap that works for 90% of situations, while other 10% can be covered with something else and very rare.

 

[Astronlmo]

The game has amazing and a big array of buffs for archers and they are on low tier tomes and higher tier tomes. Battlemages have kinda meh enchantments and they all come online later.
This is the prime reason battlemages will never compete with archers. They needed a base unit buff but instead got a nerf, and yes it's a nerf. A direct nerf.

It's a nerf across the board, not for battlemages.

And most of the powerful stuff for them comes in tier 2 and 3 tomes (amplification is tier 3 now). Other big stuff, like supremacy and death magic, is tier 5, which makes tier 3 battlemages equal to tier 4 units. That's the idea.

I don't really get the complain. And I wonder, if you did complain about nerfing rainbow archers in the last update.

 

[aerothgow]

Idk where you get that much of imperium for 3/4 armies full of t4/t5 units. If you are talking about multiplayer, then who cares, there will always be some cookie cutter crap that works for 90% of situations, while other 10% can be covered with something else and very rare.

You don't need 3,4 armies of t5 you need 1 maybe 2 and 1 or 2 of t3 and you roll both in MP and in SP.
Or a hero stack....the hero stack is unstoppable. But this is beyond the scope of this conversation. Battlemages were nerfed for no good reason and now they are very useless.
I like mystic culture but it's just awfuly weak, I almost never play it. High culture is the real battlemage faction and it's a shame.


The transmuter that is supposed to be a strong battlemage is mostly a support unit in disguise. The chaos eater is an awful unit even tho it got buffed, the only battlemage to get a buff and it needed one. And moreover no t5 battlemage...the devs kinda hate this class of units.

 

[aerothgow]

It's a nerf across the board, not for battlemages.

And most of the powerful stuff for them comes in tier 2 and 3 tomes (amplification is tier 3 now). Other big stuff, like supremacy and death magic, is tier 5, which makes tier 3 battlemages equal to tier 4 units. That's the idea.

I don't really get the complain. And I wonder, if you did complain about nerfing rainbow archers in the last update.

If it 's across the board it's for battlemages too no ?
It's just not good balance. t3 battlemages do not compare to buffed arches. Meteor arrow archers are op and this DLC was another buff to ranged with marked mechanics.

No i didn't complain about the rainbow arrows nerf.

 

[Astronlmo]

You don't need 3,4 armies of t5 you need 1 maybe 2 and 1 or 2 of t3 and you roll both in MP and in SP.
Or a hero stack....the hero stack is unstoppable. But this is beyond the scope of this conversation. Battlemages were nerfed for no good reason and now they are very useless.
I like mystic culture but it's just awfuly weak, I almost never play it. High culture is the real battlemage faction and it's a shame.


The transmuter that is supposed to be a strong battlemage is mostly a support unit in disguise. The chaos eater is an awful unit even tho it got buffed, the only battlemage to get a buff and it needed one. And moreover no t5 battlemage...the devs kinda hate this class of units.

Again. There is no nerf to battle mages. They didn't nerf them. Like at all.

They reworked the armor/resistance, so every single unit have +1 starting Tier 2. So, Zephyr archer is tier 3 unit and now has 2 armor and defense. If there is something in addition, it adds up. They made it so mythic units have higher armor and resistance without going into 60%+, where diminishing returns getting brutal.