About Paeonia and its culture

[Thracian Warrior]

Hi, i have noticed that Paeonia is with macedonian culture in the hellenic culture group, but from what i've read the paeonians are first of all distinct culture from the macedonians and very unique aswell. Described as something of a mixture betwen thracians and illyrians, but still having a lot of uniquines. The paeones were constant pain in the ass for the macedonians and also kind of a powerbase before Philip so it would be nice for some players like me to try develop this nation and for it to be distinct from the macedonians at the very least. Are the paeones greeks? Most of the evidence points in the other direction, but there is a process of hellenisation that in later period makes the paeonians more hellenic. When it comes to the current period of imperator rome the paeonians are still not hellenised. The language of the paeonians is unique and like in betwen illyrian and thracian so in which group its gonna be put is up to the devs, but one thing is clear - the paeonians should be separate culture from the macedonians and maybie(depends on in game balance) in either illyrian or thracian(dacian) culture group.

Homer says the paeonians joined on the side of the Trojans which points to them being non-greek.
Homer says the paeonians are decendant of the trojans which is not likely but again points to them not being greek.
Strabo describes the paeonians as phrygians that moved from Asia but it is most likely the opposide that happened during the early Iron Age. Also Strabo describes the paeonians as thracians.
Herodotus and Thucydides distinguish the paeonians from the thracians even tho they have a lot of common traits and that points again to them being mixture of illyrian, macedonian and thracian cultural/religios traits.
When it comes to religion the paeonians share the cult of Dionysus(Dyalus for the paeonians) and the cult of Bendis. (This again is to point not that much the thracian connection but the greek disconnection of the paeonian culture). When it comes to language the words that we know are paeonian are again in betwen illyrian and thracian mixture like the word for bison in paeonian: monaepus.
Hope i put enough arguments on the table to atleast give the devs something to consider and i hope i was helpfull!

 

[Samitte]

I agree the Paeonians should be added. Sources are very clear that the Paeonians were *not* Macedonian. As you say, what they were instead they are a bit unclear on, and without looking too much into it, it looks like its a transitionary area between Thracians and Illyrians. I'd personally make them a Daco-Thracian culture.

Things like Greek games for the elites are in no way an indication of a whole people were Hellenised. Its not even uncommon to use multiple names, one Greek for Greek language, and a native one for your own language. If anything, my quick search showed there was little to no evidence to call the Paeonians Greek. The main question should be: Were they Thracians or Illyrians? (and when are they added!)

 

[Thracian Warrior]

I agree the Paeonians should be added. Sources are very clear that the Paeonians were *not* Macedonian. As you say, what they were instead they are a bit unclear on, and without looking too much into it, it looks like its a transitionary area between Thracians and Illyrians. I'd personally make them a Daco-Thracian culture.

Things like Greek games for the elites are in no way an indication of a whole people were Hellenised. Its not even uncommon to use multiple names, one Greek for Greek language, and a native one for your own language. If anything, my quick search showed there was little to no evidence to call the Paeonians Greek. The main question should be: Were they Thracians or Illyrians? (and when are they added!)

Historically they are mixture betwen thracians and illyrians but how they will be made in game depends a lot on how to balance the nation the best way. If we want to be historically accurate they should be in seprate culture group called something like Thracian-Illyrian, but creating culture group for a single culture would be ... yeah. So i guess its gonna be work for the devs to decide the they will go to the illyrian or thracian camp.

 

[Jiben]

To quote myself from a simular thread

Alternatively we could add paenonian as a greek culture to reflect their hellenization. It would also make us not have to "guess" if they should be thracian or illyrian.

Agree that they shouldent be macedonian tho.

The Paeonians weren't Macedonian

They were most likely either related to the Thracians or the Illyrians. I would recommend creating a new Paeonian culture and having it cover all of Paeonia except the capital, which was a city founded by Philip II and so probably hellenized.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Thracian Warrior]

To quote myself from a simular thread

The Paeonians weren't Macedonian

They were most likely either related to the Thracians or the Illyrians. I would recommend creating a new Paeonian culture and having it cover all of Paeonia except the capital, which was a city founded by Philip II and so probably hellenized.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Leaving the paonians in the hellenic culture group would be the worst case scenario. Their hellenisation couldn't be that severe in this period to be reflected. Also we have to choose betwen the closest culture groups - thracian and illyrian and we choose greek which is weird at best.

 

[Mike6979]

These are all bad ideas. We might as well remove Makedon from Greek culture and Epirus as well.
I suspect the Makedonians were just another tribe of proto Greeks as were the Paeonians. Even 'Thrakian' has almost no real meaning. Were the Thrakians there a long time and maybe related to the Greeks or Phrygians? Were they a fairly new arrival?

My teachers and how I describe it is as 3 groups Greeks, Thrakians and Illyrians. With Makedonians and Paeonians as more or less Greek. But the Paeonians could be Thrakian as well.