New Skill Trees: Theorycrafting & rumination

[spacefiddle]

When you're running a renowned Merc company with over a dozen mechs, it's not very smart to deploy a single lance of 4. Especially when you're paying for all those useless mechs and pilots.

Tactics and cool pilot abilities don't go together when you have four options. Paying for idle mechwarriors and mechs is not smart money management, for the commander of a merc company. The meaningless "drop weight" stat on the deployment screen makes me sadpanda, because that's how it's always been done and how it should be done. Anyone commanding a giant ancient restored relic of a starship with their own dropship ... and the Battletech universe always had multiple sizes of dropship, with their own weight limits ... who sends 4 mechs on every single mission, would be a laughingstock, and rightly so.

 

[Nick_S]

I am on GOG, so it will be a while before I have access to any of the skill tree changes. I understand why the DEVs would like to keep the sticky thread focused on play experience so I wanted to start a new thread for speculation.

My reactions after having slept on the news:

1) I like the changes, and am excited to play with them, and expect that they will significant change the feel of the game (and make the game slightly more difficult overall).

2) I have used bulwark a lot (for the reasons described here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...st-from-hbs_kiva.1111427/page-9#post-24508541 ) but the discussion on this board about bulwark vs EM has gotten me to experiment more with using evasive pilots. It's been interesting to try a different style (and good prep for these proposed changes) but it has felt both riskier (in that the consequences of a bad decisions are worse) and like it involves more churn (since I'm moving the mech every turn even if I'm happy where it is currently). In many ways that's more like the TT experience, in which lights and mediums would move every turn, but that's one aspect of the game which is less fun translated from TT to the computer (in part because there's no opponent to react to the moves).

3) I generally build my mechs with at least some long-range firepower (at least a LL or LRM-15), but these new changes would make me plan on using more dedicated short-range mechs.

4) I _think_ that the changes will make the resolve skills more important (vigilance becomes more important because there are fewer ways to gain guarded; precision strike becomes more important because with less defensive abilities available offense is more valuable and precision strike leverages offensive ability). I'll have to see how it works in practice, but in theory I'm not sure how I feel about that. I don't like making consumable abilities a key part of my strategy, and I recognize that I currently use resolve less than I should, and learning to better use those abilities will improve my skill but goes against my intuitions.

5) The thing I am most excited about with the new Bulwark ability is being able to retreat a mech -- jumping backwards and bracing -- more effectively. That will make for more interesting choices about terrain, and is a good reason to want Bulwark on most pilots (when on a biome with forests; I'll have to see how useful bulwark feels on biomes without forests).

6) The change in Bulwark makes me think again about the ways in which range is handled differently in this game than in TT. In TT it was often reasonable to park a fire-support mech in a woods hex for a couple of turns and what protected it was the fact that most opponents were in medium or long range of their weapons (and it became time to move when opponents were within distance of short range). In that regard, even though bulwark didn't exist in TT, it allowed for tactics which were available in TT.

But, I've ultimately come around to the fact that the computer game empowers offense more than TT, because it would be tedious to play if the to-hit chances were as low as they are in TT.

7) The skill revisions will encourage me to pay more attention to what skills the OpFor has and that's part of why I think it will make the game more difficult, but also a good change.

 

[Lorkenpeist]

When I saw the description for Coolant Vent my first thought was "who designs a mech to vent coolant through the cockpit?" Looks like an interesting tradeoff gameplay-wise, but it just sounds so unrealistic.

 

[Nick_S]

When I saw the description for Coolant Vent my first thought was "who designs a mech to vent coolant through the cockpit?" Looks like an interesting tradeoff gameplay-wise, but it just sounds so unrealistic.

I agree but would note (1) if the mechanic works well then changing the description / flavor text is easy to do. (2) For example, the "guarded" concept never seemed realistic to me either, but it fits easily into the game play, so it wasn't a problem.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

When I saw the description for Coolant Vent my first thought was "who designs a mech to vent coolant through the cockpit?" Looks like an interesting tradeoff gameplay-wise, but it just sounds so unrealistic.

I agree. From a balance perspective it is fine since it has a a risk/reward system to it's use, but from a logic perspective, it is odd. It's almost like our MechWarriors accidentally connected the cooling vest from to the wrong port.

MechWarrior: "Ok, where do I connect my vest?"
MechTech: There is a blue port and a red port, connect it to the blue port...NOT THE RED PORT"..."*Bzzztt*…*crackle*"
MW: "But I'm color blind...so which one is the Blue one?...Hello? Are you there?...Ok...I'll take a guess"

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I like your comment about better protected retrograde movement...

...it means that “Sharing Armor” will be even more a thing in Multi-Player and in Single Player if the AI is tactically savvy enough.


I just can’t get over how incredibly strong Jump Jet gameplay was in Beta, Post Launch and now it seems like the game is going all DOUBLE DOWN on Jump Jets and their Evasion Charges.

Maybe if a modicum of TT (*PH looks over his shoulder at the sky to see if a Lightning Bolt was headed his way) and Jump Jet Penalites “To Hit” were added to BATTLETECH, it would balance out the now almost overwhelming advanatage Jump Jets impart.

Time will tell...

 

[KDubya]

I've tried the new beta pilot skills and found them pretty good though not real high on Bulwark.

The old Bulwark was too good and too easy, an extra 50% armor is just better than anything else.

The old Evasion meant that jump jets on everything was the way to go.

New Bulwark seems really situational for a gap closer skill where you tank the damage until you are in melee or short range, preferably combined with jump jets for extra evasion pips plus the extra guarded. If you don't want to or need to close with the enemy there's not much of a reason to take the skill anymore while previously you needed a reason to not take it.

New Sure Footing makes non jump jet mechs more viable. Now I may choose to build mechs without jump jets and use this as I move every turn for more evasion pips and a better angle. If it also worked with jump jets then it'd be back to the jumpy jumpy all the time that it was before. Dragons might have a bit more of usefulness as jump jets were really heavy on them compared to the 55 tonners.

All together it makes the game more challenging. The enemy has more mechs so if they spend their action sensor locking you while others hit you with PPCs, all of a sudden you're not going to be hitting jack shit. The AI didn't make great use of Bulwark either, they tended to move and lose it all the time while the player max armored their mechs in the mechbay and then got another 50% from using old Bulwark and made the game Turret Tech.

I haven't seen the AI use Coolant Vent yet but assuming they do that'll make the game tougher as well since the AI isn't holding back for the next mission. Alpha alpha alpha then coolant vent repeating until either you kill the mech, he kills you or he gets to 1 health. Stalkers with this are going to be bad news to come up on or any of the other notoriously hot mechs. Coolant venting Kintaros are going to be a real pain.

 

[KDubya]

I like your comment about better protected retrograde movement...

...it means that “Sharing Armor” will be even more a thing in Multi-Player and in Single Player if the AI is tactically savvy enough.


I just can’t get over how incredibly strong Jump Jet gameplay was in Beta, Post Launch and now it seems like the game is going all DOUBLE DOWN on Jump Jets and their Evasion Charges.

Maybe if a modicum of TT (*PH looks over his shoulder at the sky to see if a Lightning Bolt was headed his way) and Jump Jet Penalites “To Hit” were added to BATTLETECH, it would balance out the now almost overwhelming advanatage Jump Jets impart.

Time will tell...

Jump jets don't work with the new Sure Footing ability so there's a choice now as to go jump jets or not.

 

[bloodydoves]

I am on GOG, so it will be a while before I have access to any of the skill tree changes.

This is actually not true, my friend. I'm on GoG as well and have access to the public_preview branch that has the skill changes. Go to your game settings, under Configure Game you'll see a dropdown box named Channel. In that drop down menu you can select public_preview. No need to theorycraft, you can play it for yourself!

 

[Nick_S]

This is actually not true, my friend. I'm on GoG as well and have access to the public_preview branch that has the skill changes. Go to your game settings, under Configure Game you'll see a dropdown box named Channel. In that drop down menu you can select public_preview. No need to theorycraft, you can play it for yourself!

Nice to hear. Thank you! I'll try it out (probably later this week).

 

[Marauder3D]

Hmm, I've been playing with the current system since Beta, so these new skills are definitely going to be a game changer, pun intended.

If I had more time this week, I'd jump in the Beta.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

I just can’t get over how incredibly strong Jump Jet gameplay was in Beta, Post Launch and now it seems like the game is going all DOUBLE DOWN on Jump Jets and their Evasion Charges.

I've not having any issues with the new system. Now JJs aren't automatically better for evasion than walking, but often they are, when the terrain is difficult. JJs are extremely useful, but Sure Footing makes it a lot easier to get the same amount of evasion from just walking, which helps to keep your heat down so you can shoot more - and heat is more of an issue now because you need to move around more. But you still benefit a lot from having JJs available. (And lets not forget that JJs have plenty of other utility than just evasion.)

I don't have extensive experience with the new system yet, but honestly, it seems pretty well balanced.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

After playing a few matches (SP), I think the only skill I feel is a bit OP is Coolant Vent when the mech has a Cockpit Mod. I purposely went a bit crazy with alpha striking to see how it works, and it is nice to be able to vent all your heat, still fire, and not take any pilot injuries (from the mod).

I feel like it can negate the heat management aspect of the game a small bit. I must admit though, I do like using it .

 

[Dakk Elleron]

When I saw the description for Coolant Vent my first thought was "who designs a mech to vent coolant through the cockpit?" Looks like an interesting tradeoff gameplay-wise, but it just sounds so unrealistic.

As an engineer in real life, I couldn't agree more. For gameplay purposes, it makes for a good trade off but they definitely need to change the cause for the pilot injury. They can simply state that; when venting the coolant there is a temporary spike in temperature which is harmful to the pilot but, once the vent is complete, the mechs heat is dissipated.

In regards to the changes:
I feel that the game has become unbalanced with the changes to bulwark. Before, you could chose to play more static, by taking pilots with bulwark or kinetic by taking pilots with evasive maneuvers. Both options are viable and had counters to each (sensor lock against kinetic gameplay or breaching shot and/or shooting targets from the rear against static gameplay).
The new change to bulwark removes all static gameplay which I fail to understand why people say is a bad thing? If people wanted to increase the value of kinetic gameplay, why not fix the evasion pip situation, not nerf the bulwark situation.

Lastly, a simple fix in my mind would have been to change the guts to the following:
lvl 5
bulwark: -25% damage when stationary, can stack with cover
lvl 8
bulwark: -50% damage when bracing, can stack with cover for a total of -75%

That is a very linear approach as opposed to the proposed bulwark with coolant vent.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

As an engineer in real life, I couldn't agree more. For gameplay purposes, it makes for a good trade off but they definitely need to change the cause for the pilot injury. They can simply state that; when venting the coolant there is a temporary spike in temperature which is harmful to the pilot but, once the vent is complete, the mechs heat is dissipated...

I like that. It sounds a bit more plausible and still keeps the overall effect for balance.

 

[CloneSociety]

I only care about solo play and these changes have me concerned. I'd rather see something like the ability to choose which skills were available to pick from when starting a new campaign. IE: choose to use the old or the new version of Sensor Lock when starting a campaign to influence how difficult the enemy force is. Same with choosing the new or old version of Bulwark. I see it as another form of difficulty setting, and not everyone wants to have the toughest experience possible.

I agree that the skills that seem or are, worthless need a change, but I'd rather see more choice than just outright change. I'd like to see something where we'd have to pick between two choices. For example, choosing between Jugernaught and coolant vent. The other skill getting locked away after making your choice.

In my opinion, part of why I feel the skills are so limited is because it seems like there's so few of them.

I can appreciate that Multiplayer would need a skill balance, but I'm not fond of the idea that solo players could be affected by multiplayer balances.

 

[KDubya]

To get what you guys are calling OP Coolant Vent you have to take the new Bulwark which is marginally useful at best. It rewards an aggressive high heat playstyle which you need to build for to capitalize and which goes with the whole Guts theme.

For me I see pilot/mechs going for:

• Coolant Flush, Bulwark and Multishot using high heat short range mechs with lots of SRMs and Medium Lasers with jump jets
• Master Tactician, Sensor Lock, and Sure Footing with mechs without jump jets. Never get stability problems and if you reserve it clears what little stability you might have gained.
• Breaching, mutlishot and sure footing. Mechs with a few big guns who move all the time for evasion and angle, sniper types with long range. Drop Sure Footing for Sensor Lock if you go with jump jets or Bulwark if you will jump and brace into range, AC20 mechs.
• Ace Pilot, Sure Footing, and Multi or Sensor lock. Not sure which would be better but probably multi for fire from a distance and then fade out of LoS as you circle.

Lots more choices than before where it was pick Evasive or Bulwark and then add in Breaching, Master Tactician or Ace Pilot which also got you both Evasive and Bulwark.

Overall the game is a lot tougher as without old Bulwark you lost 50% of your maxed armor, less evasion from jump jets, reduced hit chance after being sensor locked and the AI can alpha with impunity if it can activate coolant vent. Definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

To get what you guys are calling OP Coolant Vent you have to take the new Bulwark which is marginally useful at best.

I don't feel it is. It's certainly more situational than it used to be, and you don't want in on your entire lance, but I feel that having one skirmisher - either Bulwark + Breaching Shot or Bulwark + Ace Pilot - works really well. You can stay on the front line, jump around, gather some heat, and then Brace for a turn while you take a few shots for the team (it actually feels good to casually absorb several 12-point PPC shots). I've been using Behemoth in that role for a dozen missions or so and I don't feel like Bulwark is a waste at all.

Personally I haven't spent much time even thinking about Coolant Vent. I'm just not interested in it. I don't like it conceptually, I don't like it purely from game design perspective and I don't feel like it can ever be properly balanced without a major redesign. It certainly can't function the same way in campaign, skirmish and multiplayer; it'll be open to all kinds of abuse.

 

[KDubya]

I don't feel it is. It's certainly more situational than it used to be, and you don't want in on your entire lance, but I feel that having one skirmisher - either Bulwark + Breaching Shot or Bulwark + Ace Pilot - works really well. You can stay on the front line, jump around, gather some heat, and then Brace for a turn while you take a few shots for the team (it actually feels good to casually absorb several 12-point PPC shots). I've been using Behemoth in that role for a dozen missions or so and I don't feel like Bulwark is a waste at all.

Personally I haven't spent much time even thinking about Coolant Vent. I'm just not interested in it. I don't like it conceptually, I don't like it purely from game design perspective and I don't feel like it can ever be properly balanced without a major redesign. It certainly can't function the same way in campaign, skirmish and multiplayer; it'll be open to all kinds of abuse.

The AI should not waste shots at a Bulwarked + Forest mech with 75% damage reduction ever. It should run up and open a can of whoop ass melee on you. Getting the AI to waste firepower on an unkillable mech due to abusing the AI just seems like an exploit to me.

I'm thinking that'll be one of the first tweaks that Amechwarrior adds to his 'Better AI' mod.

 

[Curuno]

I haven't seen the AI use Coolant Vent yet but assuming they do that'll make the game tougher as well since the AI isn't holding back for the next mission. Alpha alpha alpha then coolant vent repeating until either you kill the mech, he kills you or he gets to 1 health. Stalkers with this are going to be bad news to come up on or any of the other notoriously hot mechs. Coolant venting Kintaros are going to be a real pain.

That's a scary thought I hadn't considered. The saving grace of the AI using Stalkers is that more often than not they'll Alpha until they melt half the internals off or shut down - having an AI be able to go from shutdown to 0 heat even once per fight could be extremely painful.