New Catholic Mechanic: the Jesuits

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

Since we are now going to have an Immersion Pack based on Iberia and the devs have been implying upcomming reworks to religion and conversions, I figure it's a good opportunity to make a suggestion regarding one of the major Catholic organisations of the period, the Jesuits. I've been thinking they should play a more visible role ever since I watched this lecture, that portrayed the Jesuits as the "first global multinational":

(it's quite long, I suggest watching at 1.5x speed )

Of course the Jesuits are already in the game via decisions and events, but I would either get rid of them or merge them into a new mechanic that Catholics can unlock in the Curia screen (currently this requires Admin tech 10, but maybe tie it to the spawning of Colonialism instead?) and it would open a new tab of interactions with the Jesuit Society. Doing so would give you the current decision bonuses (+1% missionary strength, +0.5 yearly papal influence, Catholicism loses 2% reform desire) and you would be able to purchase further powerful bonuses (using cash? mana? a new resource for this purpose?) such as:

- an extra missionary for 10 years, 10 year cooldown;
- an extra diplomat for 10 years, 10 year cooldown;
- a tutor for the heir to the throne (a chance to improve the stats of the current heir);
- invite Jesuit scholar, -5% tech cost for the next 10 years, 20 year cooldown;
- etc.

These would be relatively easy to implement. Other ideas, which are I am not sure if they are too hard to code would be to for example: restrict these extra missionaries/diplomats to be only usable outside Europe to emphasize their global outreach nature; allow the extra Jesuit missionary to be used in foreign nations in Colonial and Trade Regions (the nation being converted would receive a significant bonus to institution spread); "attaching" the missionary to a growing colony to increase Native Assimilation; unlocking the ability to use missionaries as diplomats, etc.

However, as you do these interactions the influence of the Jesuits would grow in your country.

The simplest way to do this would be to have the unlocking of the Jesuits have a permanent maintenance cost (say 1% of monthly income) which would grow with every interaction, so that using them to much could eventually become prohibitively expensive. Or there could be an Estate type influence system that builds up a disaster? Either way, you would also have the option to "Expel the Jesuits" once you reach the Age of Absolutism, receiving cash confiscated from them and paying stab, and/or dip rep, and/or relations with other Catholics, etc.

Edit: Better yet, the trade-offs every time you use an interaction could simply be something like:

+10% influence to the Clergy estate (as per the suggestion of @Japjazz ), I like this because it makes it a trade-off between using your own "internal" clergy or the Papal State-based Jesuits;
-1 absolutism, so it would be a non-issue in the early to mid-game, but later on you would really want to avoid it, just like in the real world the powerful absolutist monarchs started resenting the power of the Jesuits in their lands.

Furthermore, unlocking the Jesuits in the first place would give the standard benefits: +1% missionary strength, +0.5 yearly papal influence, Catholicism loses 2% reform desire; but also lower max absolutism by 5. And expelling the Jesuits in the late game would give you: -1 dip rep for 10 years, -1 stab; but also +5 absolutism, 0.5*yearly income as cash.

Any thoughts?

 

[navaluiki]

I think it is a good idea. They had an important role in the Christianization of Americas and also had a significant role in Catholic Europe. Actually they were expelled from both Spain and Portugal because they were considered a threat to the Crown

 

[pizzarocket]

I think Catholicism could be revamped to give it more flavor and pick religious orders to sponsor, very much the way Muslim nations can get schools of law. One of these could be the Jesuits. I currently feel like Catholicism is very 'meh', compared to the mechanics of other religions.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

The Jesuits and other orders such as the Dominicans and Franciscans were very influential in the Catholic world for a very long time during this period. Such orders were vital in enabling the spread of Renaissance texts and knowledge to places such as Dalmatia, where they had a very strong presence historically. The Jesuits in particular were also incredibly influential in the settlement of New France (modern-day central Canada and part of the central US), and many Jesuits made great contributions to the scientific community during this time as well (i.e Ruggiero Giuseppe Boskovich, whose studies of light resulted in Louis XIV appointing him Director of Optics for the French Navy). So I would definitely be in favour of the groups' further representation in EUIV, which could make for some nice Catholic flavour

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

I like the idea of also adding other religious order like the Franciscan ones or the Dominicans, especially for Catholics who stay in Europe and aren't as overseas focused. Any suggestions for what kinds of bonuses they could give? I am not very knowledgeable about Catholic orders, but for example I associate the Franciscans with work with the poor, so how about they can give you a missionary that you can also use to lower unrest in an area?

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

I like the idea of also adding other religious order like the Franciscan ones or the Dominicans, especially for Catholics who stay in Europe and aren't as overseas focused. Any suggestions for what kinds of bonuses they could give? I am not very knowledgeable about Catholic orders, but for example I associate the Franciscans with work with the poor, so how about they can give you a missionary that you can also use to lower unrest in an area?

@Kane_hun has a thread about the Pauline Order, so perhaps he could provide some input here. I also think @Grand Historian would be interested in this conversation (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he mentioned orders in his Catholicism rework, though I could be wrong), and would likely have some good ideas to contribute

 

[Japjazz]

To give my thoughts. I think you give good ideas on how to rework the jesuits.

you would be able to purchase further powerful bonuses (using cash? mana? a new resource for this purpose?) such as:

- an extra missionary for 10 years, 10 year cooldown;
- an extra diplomat for 10 years, 10 year cooldown;
- a tutor for the heir to the throne (a chance to improve the stats of the current heir);
- invite Jesuit scholar, -5% tech cost for the next 10 years, 20 year cooldown;
- etc.

mana and money to pay for the services of the order would work for me, but let me take this one step futher by also introducing extra costs via events. For example you patronize the propaganda of the order or their missions in the Far East, influencing not only your country but also Japan and China. this means that the introduction and conversion of Japanese and Chinese provinces could be sped up by your decisions as well.

restrict these extra missionaries/diplomats to be only usable outside Europe to emphasize their global outreach nature

I would allow missionaries in Europe as well to emphasize the role of the Jesuits as the defenders of the catholic faith in Europe.

allow the extra Jesuit missionary to be used in foreign nations in Colonial and Trade Regions (the nation being converted would receive a significant bonus to institution spread);

This idea of bonus to institution spread should be in it, as this would link very well historically with the use of the printing press in Japan.

However, as you do these interactions the influence of the Jesuits would grow in your country. The simplest way to do this would be to have the unlocking of the Jesuits have a permanent maintenance cost (say 1% of monthly income) which would grow with every interaction, so that using them to much could eventually become prohibitively expensive. Or there could be an Estate type influence system that builds up a disaster? Either way, you would also have the option to "Expel the Jesuits" once you reach the Age of Absolutism, receiving cash confiscated from them and paying stab, and/or dip rep, and/or relations with other Catholics, etc.

I would go for the estate influence. I vaguely remember an article about the influence of the jesuits in Spain and France, but I have forgotten about it. Let me search this up and answer later because it gives extra arguments.
The expulsion of the Jesuits was due to the criticism on their accommodation strategy in China and Japan, but gamewise this is difficult. your idea probably would workout better then using events related to the Rites controversy in china.

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

To give my thoughts. I think you give good ideas on how to rework the jesuits.

mana and money to pay for the services of the order would work for me, but let me take this one step futher by also introducing extra costs via events. For example you patronize the propaganda of the order or their missions in the Far East, influencing not only your country but also Japan and China. this means that the introduction and conversion of Japanese and Chinese provinces could be sped up by your decisions as well.

I would allow missionaries in Europe as well to emphasize the role of the Jesuits as the defenders of the catholic faith in Europe.

This idea of bonus to institution spread should be in it, as this would link very well historically with the use of the printing press in Japan.

I would go for the estate influence. I vaguely remember an article about the influence of the jesuits in Spain and France, but I have forgotten about it. Let me search this up and answer later because it gives extra arguments.
The expulsion of the Jesuits was due to the criticism on their accommodation strategy in China and Japan, but gamewise this is difficult. your idea probably would workout better then using events related to the Rites controversy in china.

Thank you very much for the comments! With regards to the expulsion of the Jesuits, I was actually referring to their expulsion from Portugal, Spain, France, etc. in the late XVIII century, not in the non-Catholic countries, but yes, for those cases you are right, using event chains with some historical flavour would be a good way to do it.

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

I have some new suggestions for what the tradeoffs for Catholics using the Jesuit interactions could be. Every time you use one on their abilities, you would also get:

+10% influence to the Clergy estate (as per the suggestion of @Japjazz ), I like this because it makes it a trade-off between using your own "internal" clergy or the Papal State-based Jesuits;
-1 absolutism, so it would be a non-issue in the early to mid-game, but later on you would really want to avoid it, just like in the real world the powerful absolutist monarchs started resenting the power of the Jesuits in their lands.

Furthermore, unlocking the Jesuits in the first place would give the standard benefits: +1% missionary strength, +0.5 yearly papal influence, Catholicism loses 2% reform desire; but also lower max absolutism by 5. And expelling the Jesuits in the late game would give you: -1 dip rep for 10 years, -1 stab; but also +5 absolutism, 0.5*yearly income as cash.

 

[Gheryon]

i think Jesuits should work something like this (only Jesuits, not sure about Dominicos and Franciscanos):
They are unlocked through decision in reformation era and can work like a mix of colonicer and missionary in uncoloniced land. this colony should grow slower than normal colonies, but when completed, it have same religion as overlord and higher development. They also should be able to be sent to other countries and convert a province to the overlord religion (this may be unlocket through some decision or event too), this could make a decision in the country target able to expel the Jesuits at the cost of giving a casus belli to the owner of the Jesuit against this country.

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

They are unlocked through decision in reformation era and can work like a mix of colonicer and missionary in uncoloniced land. this colony should grow slower than normal colonies, but when completed, it have same religion as overlord and higher development.

Would this be too powerful I wonder? The pace of colonisation is already rather fast in the game compared to history (not counting the Spanish conquest of Aztec and Incan empires, which is much, much slower) and it would mean the Catholics would absolutely dominate everywhere in the New World. On the other hand, I like that it would also open the possibility to have events like the Misiones Orientales, so you could also add a chance that the Jesuit "colony" could become an independent native tag instead.

 

[Gheryon]

Would this be too powerful I wonder? The pace of colonisation is already rather fast in the game compared to history (not counting the Spanish conquest of Aztec and Incan empires, which is much, much slower) and it would mean the Catholics would absolutely dominate everywhere in the New World. On the other hand, I like that it would also open the possibility to have events like the Misiones Orientales, so you could also add a chance that the Jesuit "colony" could become an independent native tag instead.

yes, thats why i said it should be slower than normal their speed to colonise a province

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

yes, thats why i said it should be slower than normal their speed to colonise a province

But if the speed of colonisation is already too fast, any further increase, even if small, is only going to make it worse... What did you think of my suggestion that instead you could attach the Jesuit missionary to an already growing colony, and then you get a bonus when the colony completes, like extra Native Assimilation or straight up extra development?

 

[Gheryon]

But if the speed of colonisation is already too fast, any further increase, even if small, is only going to make it worse... What did you think of my suggestion that instead you could attach the Jesuit missionary to an already growing colony, and then you get a bonus when the colony completes, like extra Native Assimilation or straight up extra development?

i think you are mixing slow with fast. the Jesuits were more centered in spreading the faith than the pure economincal expansion, as they make vows of poverty and chastity, and thats why if they are implemented as coloniser, it should take longer to complete the colony. Also, as the Jesuits were very cultivated, they lead to making big profits where they went, so this is why it should give extra development on colony after complete, or as you said give more native assimiliation.
This, i think, can be implemented as you said as a missionary or instead as an extra coloniser as i proposed.

 

[Lord Hoosier]

I like the idea of also adding other religious order like the Franciscan ones or the Dominicans, especially for Catholics who stay in Europe and aren't as overseas focused. Any suggestions for what kinds of bonuses they could give? I am not very knowledgeable about Catholic orders, but for example I associate the Franciscans with work with the poor, so how about they can give you a missionary that you can also use to lower unrest in an area?

Franciscans took over New Spain when the Jesuits got the boot.