New Byzantine Graphics art resources, and western orientation.

[Porsenna]

I'm in the camp that thinks the Byzantine graphics are strange in that they seem to promote a Middle-Eastern oriented Byzantium, where at the end of the Empire it can be seen that the Byzantines were heavily western oriented in terms of armor and fighting styles. (Essentially the Byzantines were using Italian and German fencing manuals and instructors like the rest of Europe.)

In terms of equipment the following resources are pretty great for illustrating A) What Byzantine soldiers of the period actually looked like, and B) Demonstrate that the Byzantines were already adopting western military tech, ideas, and equipment

Our first and most important image is a contemporary depiction of Byzantine (Roman) soldiers on fresco in Kastoria, Greece. (Although the attribution is kind of unclear, it might be from Albania. In either case it depicts the procession of Constantine by native inhabitants of the Balkans during a time when Constantine's city was still called such, and his Empire still clinging to life.)

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http://surprisedbytime.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html
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The net images are from an illustrated and printed edition of the Cretan knightly romance, the Erotoktitos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotokritos

That such a story, patterned off of western tales of adventure chivalry came to be on Crete is another example of the western orientation of the Byzantines during the time period, and one that likely would have grown if the Empire had managed to continue on. But, more to the point these images come from a version printed in Romania in 1787, but the book and the illustrations are based on an older model and depict soldiers armed in a fashion that mixes Western armor with Balkan elements.

https://medievalswordmanship.wordpr...ssance-book-erotokritos-of-vitsentzo-kornaro/
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What can be seen here is a fashion that imports certain aspects of Western armor, such as a Celata, or barbuta style helmet, and the adoption of plate armor - as lamellar, or a version of scale armor can clearly been seen around the arms and stylistically look very different from what is being worn on the torso.

The helmets in particular look like they are fashioned after this example of Venetian Celata (Sallet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallet#/media/File:Sallet_"in_the_Venetian_Style"_MET_DP22327.jpg
Or this even more ornate example. (I cannot find the original provenance of it, but I came across this image log ago searching for examples of Italian helmets)

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I think these examples can serve as a better basis than even the much vaunted Osprey series of illustrated books on the matter of late Byzantine arms. More than just a graphics issue, I think these can serve as inspiration for new Byzantine missions or events related to it and the west.

If any devs are interested, this website offers some other interesting articles and art resources. https://byzantineoplomachia.wordpress.com/library-βιβλιοθήκη/

 

[delta180]

the Western/Eastern divide that exists in EU4 is not real. It is a fiction that is designed to represent how the areas around the rich colonial nations whom profited off the trades of Tobacco, Cotton and Furs could afford the latest weapons and equipment whereas poorer nations would often field armies equipped with cheap out of date weapons.
the western technology group simply represents nations that were in the sphere of influence of Spain, The Netherlands, France and England, the modal itself does not work well with alt-history, hence we now have institutions, but the Byzantine empire was not in the privileged group of nations directly next to the colonial powers

 

[Porsenna]

My post is less about that, and more about how A) The Byzantines could use some spiffy new graphics, and B) The the alt-history Tier 2/3/4 models should be based on/inspired by Western (or at least Eastern European) aesthetics.

The current unit pack makes it look like they want the rulers of Constantinople to look like Turks, weather they be Turks or not.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't mind a mission that lets the Byzantines into the western tech group, or better yet an initial re-assignment into it. Or at the very least some culture or economic related missions that can tie a re-emergent Byzantine state into the culture and economy of the west.

 

[delta180]

My post is less about that, and more about how A) The Byzantines could use some spiffy new graphics, and B) The the alt-history Tier 2/3/4 models should be based on/inspired by Western (or at least Eastern European) aesthetics.

I think in many ways, Byzantine Westernisation was a sign of its decline. the Latin empire, Venetian republic and many crusader states influenced the Byzantines who before had a unique culture and dress.

The current unit pack makes it look like they want the rulers of Constantinople to look like Turks, weather they be Turks or not.

While the idea of Byzantine forces wearing turbans was absurd because they came to be seen as a symbol of oppression under the Ottoman empire, the Fez was a Byzantine hat that the Ottomans appropriated and I would imagine it would be regarded as Byzantine had they resurged. the fustanella (kilt) was used by Greeks in warfare and also has its origin in Byzantine times, I think it is not likely that the Byzantines would standardise their uniform like the western powers as they were a big fan of dress indicating status alike the Ottomans.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't mind a mission that lets the Byzantines into the western tech group, or better yet an initial re-assignment into it. Or at the very least some culture or economic related missions that can tie a re-emergent Byzantine state into the culture and economy of the west.

while a resurgent Byzantine empire may have been welcome at the start of the timeline, the reformation would likely have caused tensions between the Byzantines and the Catholics, historically the Europeans invested a great deal into finding a trade route to India and china that went around the Ottomans and they would be none too happy about competition from the resurgent Byzantines. The Byzantines would have become outcasts in Europe just like the Ottomans were historically, I think the Byzantines would fit better moving back into the Anatolian group rather than the Western group, but since there is little basis for actually tech changing nations mid game I think it would be best if they just stay Eastern

 

[Porsenna]

I think in many ways, Byzantine Westernisation was a sign of its decline. the Latin empire, Venetian republic and many crusader states influenced the Byzantines who before had a unique culture and dress.

Let's be real here- It's not like a resurgent Byzantine empire is going to exist in a vacuum. Westernization may well have been a sign of it's decline (Or perhaps not, as military-cultural influences had been creeping in since the Crusades -jousting for example-, and they don't see to have had much specific impact on the always rising and falling fortunes of the Empire.)

But at the point EUIV starts in, they are there and cannot be ignored. And they serve as the only indication of where the Byzantines might have evolved from if they had somehow survived.

While the idea of Byzantine forces wearing turbans was absurd because they came to be seen as a symbol of oppression under the Ottoman empire, the Fez was a Byzantine hat that the Ottomans appropriated and I would imagine it would be regarded as Byzantine had they resurged. the fustanella (kilt) was used by Greeks in warfare and also has its origin in Byzantine times, I think it is not likely that the Byzantines would standardise their uniform like the western powers as they were a big fan of dress indicating status alike the Ottomans.

There isn't any evidence that suggest they would have used them as part of military costume, either. In regards to the Fez, I'm not expert but quick wiki suggests that while it maybe originated in Byzantine Greece, it could have originated somewhere else in the Balkans, and in either case would become more associated with Slavs.

Likewise, one of the problems with the unit pack is that the Byzantines ARE NOT wearing a fustanella, but rather some long coat over baggy trousers.

Could these have been designs a resurgent Byzantium opted to use? Maybe. but I think it's far more likelly they would have been taking cues from thier Italian neighbors, as the clearly were historically.

while a resurgent Byzantine empire may have been welcome at the start of the timeline, the reformation would likely have caused tensions between the Byzantines and the Catholics, historically the Europeans invested a great deal into finding a trade route to India and china that went around the Ottomans and they would be none too happy about competition from the resurgent Byzantines. The Byzantines would have become outcasts in Europe just like the Ottomans were historically, I think the Byzantines would fit better moving back into the Anatolian group rather than the Western group, but since there is little basis for actually tech changing nations mid game I think it would be best if they just stay Eastern

Why exactly should the posturing of Western nations have effect on how the Byzantines themselves might or might not be open to western tech or cultural influences? Japan and the Dutch didn't need to like each other for the Dutch to share guns with the Japanese, as an example, and it would be far, far easier to the Byzantines to passivly absorb these influences.

Besides if we want to talk fantasy, the Italian states would have a vested interest in the old trading routes remaining open through Constinople and the red sea to stand as competition to the new would routes, and a resurgent Byzantium helps enable that. The Atlantic nations may not be happy, but the the economic ties to central and eastern Europe might build new ties and alliances.

We really cant say for sure, as ti never happened.

 

[delta180]

(Or perhaps not, as military-cultural influences had been creeping in since the Crusades -jousting for example-, and they don't see to have had much specific impact on the always rising and falling fortunes of the Empire.)

the westernisation of the army was a result of the destitution of the Byzantine army, they were unable to have a standing army and hired western mercenaries to fight battles for them instead, for example the catalan company. A little bit of cultural assimilation like jousting is normal

But at the point EUIV starts in, they are there and cannot be ignored. And they serve as the only indication of where the Byzantines might have evolved from if they had somehow survived.

the same argument could be used to defend the Turkification of the army, the Byzantine army was mainly consistent of mercenaries from the west and Anatolia, but I am personally sure that this would have changed had the Byzantines reconquered their core lands

There isn't any evidence that suggest they would have used them as part of military costume, either. In regards to the Fez, I'm not expert but quick wiki suggests that while it maybe originated in Byzantine Greece, it could have originated somewhere else in the Balkans, and in either case would become more associated with Slavs.

the Greek independence movement, which started as a movement designed to restore Byzantium used both the fez and the fustanella in combat

Why exactly should the posturing of Western nations have effect on how the Byzantines themselves might or might not be open to western tech or cultural influences? Japan and the Dutch didn't need to like each other for the Dutch to share guns with the Japanese, as an example, and it would be far, far easier to the Byzantines to passivly absorb these influences.

but Japan has no ability to change into the western tech group, as I said before the western tech group does not represent any actual cultural differences, it simply represents the nations in the sphere of the rich colonial nations

Besides if we want to talk fantasy, the Italian states would have a vested interest in the old trading routes remaining open through Constinople and the red sea to stand as competition to the new would routes, and a resurgent Byzantium helps enable that. The Atlantic nations may not be happy, but the the economic ties to central and eastern Europe might build new ties and alliances.

the Italian states brief period of power came to an end at the start of the Italian wars, the EU4 timeframe covers a period of history when large nations started to dominate small city states

 

[Porsenna]

I think you're missing some of my points in trying to bring a counter argument to everything I've said.

Basically, while it's nice that the Greek nationalist movement used the fez, it has no bearing on what a Byzantium soldier from a state that would have never fallen to the Ottomans would have worn; a Byzantium that survived the Ottomans would be dealing with a very different cultural load, and the only real direction we have for that course they would have charted is how they existed right before the fall.

Which is a state of a great deal of western influences. To that end Japan isn't an example of changing tech-levels, rather it was to show that there doesn't need to be mutual love between entities for there to still be cultural and technological exchange. That was something I thought you had been arguing might be unlikely in the event that the powers of western Europe didn't end up taking liking to a resurgent Byzantium. (So my counter point was that it didn't really matter how well or ill disposed they were. A Byzantium that wanted to take western influences would do just that.)

In terms of westernization already present among the Byzantines, it doesn't really matter how you or I think of these things as being good or bad for them, it's just how it was.

 

[delta180]

Basically, while it's nice that the Greek nationalist movement used the fez, it has no bearing on what a Byzantium soldier from a state that would have never fallen to the Ottomans would have worn

the Byzantines invented the Fez and the Greeks were willing to wear them in combat, I think that has a lot of bearing on what a Byzantine soldier in a powerful Byzantium would have worn

and the only real direction we have for that course they would have charted is how they existed right before the fall.

I think it is silly to base a future powerful Byzantine empire on how they were when they were at their weakest, culture is not the only factor in uniform, climate, class system and wealth all played a part and Byzantium was different to the western nations in all of those ways

Which is a state of a great deal of western influences. To that end Japan isn't an example of changing tech-levels, rather it was to show that there doesn't need to be mutual love between entities for there to still be cultural and technological exchange. That was something I thought you had been arguing might be unlikely in the event that the powers of western Europe didn't end up taking liking to a resurgent Byzantium. (So my counter point was that it didn't really matter how well or ill disposed they were. A Byzantium that wanted to take western influences would do just that.)

there is no precedent for changing tech group and Byzantium does not fit into the games definition of what a western nation is

In terms of westernization already present among the Byzantines, it doesn't really matter how you or I think of these things as being good or bad for them, it's just how it was.

the Byzantines did not westernise their government, their art or architecture, I see no reason why they would continue the westernisation their armies, inviting westernised mercenaries to fight for them was an act of desperation not a assimilation

 

[Kane_hun]

there is no precedent for changing tech group

Forming Mughals changes unit type and tech group to Indian, so its not unreasonable to expecet a change.

 

[delta180]

Forming Mughals changes unit type and tech group to Indian, so its not unreasonable to expecet a change.

this could just be a debuff for the Mughals, the Mughals are notoriously the best formable nation in the game

 

[Porsenna]

@ Delta180 - I'm not really interested in forum war style block quotes trying to nit pick everything someone else says, but I'll do my best to address your points here.

I think the main issue that we disagree on is that you think that what Greek nationalists of the modern period should be a model for the Byzantines, and I disagree. The Greeks of our world were both searching for a new national genesis and searching for the symbols for it, and its only natural they reached for the styles that had been used and adopted during the 400 year occupation of the area by the Ottomans.

But the Byzantines wouldn't have gone down that route, as they never would have been occupied, and therefore the cultural evolution might have been totally different.

For me, it seems apparent based on the only model we have for Byzantine trajectory (the fashions and forms of the late empire itself) that the model they would have gone with was one that tied into a greater Mediterranean cultural and artistic tradition. It's clear that the Byzantines were importing armor from Italy for themselves and not just mercenaries, and like wise you can underestimate the number of Greeks who were in Italy spreading elements of Greek culture. Unlike the provincial and rather insular society Greece would become under the Ottomans, the Byzantines were developing a much more open culture - and if they had the funds for it, probably a much more innovative one, as its clear the Byzantines were willing to try very new and bold ways to try to deal with the Turks.

A prime example of this is how they "westernized" the theoretically most fundamental aspect of the state, their religion in order to try to get more Western support. This happened in the council of Florence in 1339, notably before out game start. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence

Like wise if you ever considered to look at some of the other sources i have given you would see that "westernization" is something very different from just inviting a bunch of mercenaries over- in the area of arms, armor, and combat it clear that the Rhomaioi themselves were adopting western practices, and that if they had survived its very easy to seem them developing in along a path modeled by other Mediterranean states, the chief example among them being the Italians due to proximity, trade, a history of Italian meddling in the Balkans leaving lots of small colonies, and the number of Greeks in Italy itself who might find themselves drawn back to a resurgent Byzantium.

You say that western influences were adopted at the Byzantines weakest points, and I don't disagree with that - but the future of a culture doesn't rest on where it was, but from where it's going. I have confidence that had the Byzantines somehow pulled out the miracle of surviving the Ottomans they would have found a way to take these new influences along with the old and evolve into something new.

And I think that because the only evidence we has suggests that to be the case. Not what their descendants after several hundred years after foreign occupation would do, but they themselves.

I do not care enough about tech group switching to argue with you. I think it would be cool, you don't. I can live with that disagreement.

 

[delta180]

I'm not really interested in forum war style block quotes trying to nit pick everything someone else says

I personally find it useful to quote things people say to make sure I actually talk about the points they bring up. If I went off topic and started talking about the early Byzantine empire, you would rightly say that is not what your post was about. I am sorry if you construed this as some sort of personal attack on your thread, it is just my preferred way of conversing with people on forums

The Greeks of our world were both searching for a new national genesis and searching for the symbols for it, and its only natural they reached for the styles that had been used and adopted during the 400 year occupation of the area by the Ottomans.

the Ottomans were heavily influenced by the Byzantine Greeks far more than any other culture, indeed they referred to their empire as the empire of Rome and to the fez as the hat of Rome and as said before there political situation was alike a resurgent Byzantine empire. It is likely that the Byzantines would have modernised in much the same way had they been alike the Ottomans

its clear the Byzantines were willing to try very new and bold ways to try to deal with the Turks.

this is really my point, partial westernisation was a means to ends to defeat the Turks, not a long term objective for the Byzantines

A prime example of this is how they "westernized" the theoretically most fundamental aspect of the state, their religion in order to try to get more Western support. This happened in the council of Florence in 1339, notably before out game start.

this was a symbolic move by the Byzantine emperor, it never came to anything and greek orthodoxy did not actually change. In reality this was a successful attempt by the emperor to get a crusade called to restore the Byzantine empire (the crusade of Varna).

Like wise if you ever considered to look at some of the other sources i have given you would see that "westernization" is something very different from just inviting a bunch of mercenaries over- in the area of arms, armor, and combat it clear that the Rhomaioi themselves were adopting western practices, and that if they had survived its very easy to seem them developing in along a path modeled by other Mediterranean states, the chief example among them being the Italians due to proximity, trade, a history of Italian meddling in the Balkans leaving lots of small colonies, and the number of Greeks in Italy itself who might find themselves drawn back to a resurgent Byzantium.

I did read though the source you advised the devs to look at, the one by the bazaar marshal arts fanatics who claim to somehow be apart of an army of an empire that fell almost 600 years ago, it was not amazingly translated from greek and put me off looking at your other sources, having re-read them now it basically said that Italians trained the late Greek armies who were trained by Germans, but this was common throughout Europe, including Poland Hungary and other Eastern tech group countries, as I said tech group has no bearing on actual armed forces at the time, it just serves to divide colonial Europeans from non-colonial Europeans, your other sources that were not just pictures were all made after the Byzantine period by Italian influenced areas, then you likened the Greeks depicted to Italians, which seems objective to me

You say that western influences were adopted at the Byzantines weakest points, and I don't disagree with that - but the future of a culture doesn't rest on where it was, but from where it's going. I have confidence that had the Byzantines somehow pulled out the miracle of surviving the Ottomans they would have found a way to take these new influences along with the old and evolve into something new.

I completly agree that the Byzantine culture would have evolved, yet I agrued that they would have been outcast from western society because of their position and religion, I would like to know why you think that would not have happened and that westernisation would have continued

I do not care enough about tech group switching to argue with you. I think it would be cool, you don't. I can live with that disagreement.

Sadly tech groups are arbitrary because they are left over from the time before institutions. I personally hope paradox will replace the system with a dynamic one, but until then Byzantium should stay eastern tech

 

[Porsenna]

The biggest point is that Western countries don't have the ability to stop another country from adopting western influences. Just because Austria might not like the Byzantines doesn't really mean much if the Byzantines are willing to adapt anyway.

I mean, what exactly could a western country do to stop another countries westernization, short of invading it?

And even then, the Byzantine would still have a place in European politics as the Eastern balance to Austria, as the Ottomans were historically with their alliance with France. If anything such an alliance would be far, far more palatable to the peoples of Europe then the so called "union of the Lilly and the Crescent".

So no, I don't think that the Byzantines would have been ostracized, and even if they were it wouldn't have mattered for the purposes of westernization - which is an internally driven action, not an external one.

s for the council of Florence, it was serious enough to cause a rift in the orthodox Church leading the separation of the Russian and Bulgarian churches, and for the Ottomans to install a man as the Patriarch of Constantinople to officially reverse it, and the Konstantine XI to not be crowned in Constantinople to avoid association with Latin priests to his subjects in the Peloponnese. In other words, it was very serious, but ineffectual due to the small resources and power of the Byzantines at the time.

As for the martial arts fanatics, HEMA is an important movement to rediscover traditional martial arts, and these guys seem to be the only one willing to make publicly available very interesting images, and research (even if amateur) about how the late Byzantines really fit into the wider European world, rather than rely on age-old often biased views on the Byzantines that seek to make them some exotic "other".

Like wise the images in question come from Albania, which is just as Byzantine influenced as Italian, and Romania - an area very, very much in the Byzantine sphere of influence, and uses images based on earlier examples, as they certainly aren't contemporary depictions of soldiers, nor soldiers depicted in Romanian attire of any period.

And that's my point - the Byzantines, just as in the long tradition of the Romans before them adopt and adapt, and make the successful military innovations of someone else their own. In the final days of the Empire it showed a new openness to western developments that certainly would have continued if they had survived, and the time of Byzantium being its own insular world, resistant to outside influences was over.

 

[delta180]

The biggest point is that Western countries don't have the ability to stop another country from adopting western influences. Just because Austria might not like the Byzantines doesn't really mean much if the Byzantines are willing to adapt anyway.

I mean, what exactly could a western country do to stop another countries westernization, short of invading it?

if the premise of your argument is that any country can westernise, then you should be suggesting a new westernisation mechanic not a unique westernisation for the Byzantines

And even then, the Byzantine would still have a place in European politics as the Eastern balance to Austria, as the Ottomans were historically with their alliance with France. If anything such an alliance would be far, far more palatable to the peoples of Europe then the so called "union of the Lilly and the Crescent".

So no, I don't think that the Byzantines would have been ostracized, and even if they were it wouldn't have mattered for the purposes of westernization - which is an internally driven action, not an external one.

having a place in European politics did not save the Ottomans from being ostracized

s for the council of Florence, it was serious enough to cause a rift in the orthodox Church leading the separation of the Russian and Bulgarian churches, and for the Ottomans to install a man as the Patriarch of Constantinople to officially reverse it, and the Konstantine XI to not be crowned in Constantinople to avoid association with Latin priests to his subjects in the Peloponnese. In other words, it was very serious, but ineffectual due to the small resources and power of the Byzantines at the time.

but it was still a political alliance not a religious affiliation, the Russians did not want to help the failing Byzantines and the Ottomans were trying to cooperate with their Orthodox subjects. Also Konstantine choose not to be crowned in Constantinople because he did not want to be seen as a advocate of the treaty of Florence

Like wise the images in question come from Albania, which is just as Byzantine influenced as Italian, and Romania - an area very, very much in the Byzantine sphere of influence, and uses images based on earlier examples, as they certainly aren't contemporary depictions of soldiers, nor soldiers depicted in Romanian attire of any period.

by Romanian do you mean Byzantine or modern Romania?
Anyway, the region is unimportant, what matters is that the source comes from long after the fall of the Byzantine empire, so the accuracy of the attire is questionable, we should not expect people from the early modern era to know more about the late medieval era just because they lived closer to the time period

And that's my point - the Byzantines, just as in the long tradition of the Romans before them adopt and adapt, and make the successful military innovations of someone else their own. In the final days of the Empire it showed a new openness to western developments that certainly would have continued if they had survived, and the time of Byzantium being its own insular world, resistant to outside influences was over.

Byzantium was also open to middle eastern developments and they were not more open to western developments than nations such as Poland or Russia. I do not see why the Byzantines should get this mechanic to adopt western tech but others shouldn't. EU4 moved away from the idea of westernisation a while ago

 

[Porsenna]

The tech group argument is superfluous, I have already stated that I disagree with you, and that I find your arguments unconvincing (and at this point repetitive.) You have not brought any strong evidence to counter my opinions, only more subjective opinions of your own. Indeed, the entire concept of the French-Ottoman alliance is the exact opposite of being "ostracized from Europe" it means it was an important component of the balance of powers, something a resurgent Byzantine Empire would be sure to find a place in, and far more easily then a Muslim power conquering Christian lands.

Indeed, as poisonous as the council of Florence was, it is direct evidence that the leaders of Byzantium were willing to initiate deep, even unwelcome changes in the name of trying to find some advantage against the Turkish forces, and you fail to consider that if these tactics had succeeded what cause would the Byzantines have to to stop them?

You willfully ignore that these images offer a close correlation to one another, both are from the immediate area around the Byzantines and while only the fresco seems to date from the Byzantine period, the close corroboration of the helmets in particular indicate that the drawn images are based on an earlier example; certainly they are not example of then present or past example of solders from the area of modern Roumania, from any example I've seen.

I have no idea why this is the hill you choose to stand on, but it seems a poorly chosen one.

 

[delta180]

The tech group argument is superfluous, I have already stated that I disagree with you, and that I find your arguments unconvincing (and at this point repetitive.) You have not brought any strong evidence to counter my opinions

my strong evidence is that the Ottomans did not westernise until the 1930s, that in EU4 Poland and Hungary do not westernise, as I said before the east west divide in EU4 is fiction. also I have only repeated myself to elaborate on earlier points

Indeed, the entire concept of the French-Ottoman alliance is the exact opposite of being "ostracized from Europe"

the French were criticised by the rest of Europe and even by some french lords for the alliance. Lets not forget that it was described by burckhardt as "the blasphemous union of the lily and the crescent" a term you made reference to earlier

Byzantine Empire would be sure to find a place in, and far more easily then a Muslim power conquering Christian lands.

why do you think that a heretical nation would get on better with the catholic church and empire than the muslims in the time of the reformation?

Indeed, as poisonous as the council of Florence was, it is direct evidence that the leaders of Byzantium were willing to initiate deep, even unwelcome changes in the name of trying to find some advantage against the Turkish forces

but they did not initiate deep changes, yes mending the schism was unwelcome but it was not implemented

you fail to consider that if these tactics had succeeded what cause would the Byzantines have to to stop them?

the hundreds of thousands of Orthodox subjects that would now be apart of their empire, not to mention their church already did not like the idea. If they could not get a few thousand people in their tiny empire to accept the reforms what makes you think they could implement the reform on a larger scale

You willfully ignore that these images offer a close correlation to one another, both are from the immediate area around the Byzantines and while only the fresco seems to date from the Byzantine period, the close corroboration of the helmets in particular indicate that the drawn images are based on an earlier example; certainly they are not example of then present or past example of solders from the area of modern Roumania, from any example I've seen.

I consider all of this beside the point, we already know that their were many western mercenaries working for the Byzantines during their decline, they would have identified with the Byzantine army but been from Italy and other European countries, people outside of the empire did not have the most accurate information on what the late Byzantine military was like so propagated misunderstanding

I have no idea why this is the hill you choose to stand on, but it seems a poorly chosen one.

well, this is a period of history I am quite interested in and I game I am also pretty interested in. I also like to discuss game mechanics on forums, but normally I reach more agreements than I have with you, you seem a little too interested in arguing your point and less interested in expanding it for example when I said

Sadly tech groups are arbitrary because they are left over from the time before institutions. I personally hope paradox will replace the system with a dynamic one

and

I do not see why the Byzantines should get this mechanic to adopt western tech but others shouldn't

I was inviting you to expand on your mechanic to westernise, but you seem more interested in arguing about Byzantine history