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theolor

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Mar 5, 2011
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So as you can see with world war Wednesday Hungary campaign that the "Horthy Government" is fascist, I think they should be considered more neutral because at the end of world war II when Hungary attempted to switch sides Hitler removed Horthy from power and installed a Fascist puppet "Government of National Unity" under Ferenc Szalasi and the Fascist
 
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Having Hitler replace him doesn't makes him a good guy or retroactively a neutral government.

It was an authoritarian regime with ties with fascist Italy and later nazi Germany, it also joined the Axis in april 1941. As the game lacks the complete spectrum of political regimes, it's categorized as fascist as the closest type.
 
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Szálasi was national socialist and not fascist. They launched it for one purpose and that was to not have what happened in Romania where they switched sides and immediately the whole front collapsed. Horthy should not be considered neutral at all. The only thing special that set Hungary apart was that we had elections. Even the link that you provide clearly states that the ideology is national socialist for the Arrow Cross party.
 
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The mistake you make is thinking all fascists are the same and that there can only be one fascist party in a country.
Horthy was fascist in the Italian corporatist style, which was more widespread and popular in the world at the time. It was also not the most extreme version of fascist.

Horthy's government is rightly fascist.
 
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Horthy's governement is improperly fasist, rightly is constitutional monarchy.
Szálasi was national socialist, Hitler was national socialist, Mussolini was non national socialist, Stalin was international socialist.

Horthy was right-sided, others was left-sided, this is the difference.
Dont disturb you that, Hungary governement was "Bitter Loser" and nacionalist.
 
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I think Horthy's default faction designation is supposed to be a game mechanic rather than a detailed academic analysis of Horthy's convictions between 1936 and 1945. This is a wargame, not a simulation.
 
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Hungary is fascist, because there are only 3 ideologys, and fascism is the most accurate for the Horthy government. In HoI, your country can be communist(no, its not good for us), democratic(nope, I don't think that Hungary was democratic) or fascist. There is an extra category, the neutrals if I'm correct, but Hungary was not neutral. Also remember, fascism ≠ Mussolini's or Hitlers ideology. At least, not necessarily.
 
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Hungary is fascist, because there are only 3 ideologys <SNIP> There is an extra category, the neutrals if I'm correct, but Hungary was not neutral.

There are FOUR ideologies: Fascist, Democratic, Communist and Non-Aligned, and Non-Aligned has pretty much nothing to do with the country's actual foreign alignment. The latter is used mostly for monarchies that weren't quite fascist.
 
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There are FOUR ideologies: Fascist, Democratic, Communist and Non-Aligned, and Non-Aligned has pretty much nothing to do with the country's actual foreign alignment. The latter is used mostly for monarchies that weren't quite fascist.
This is pretty accurate. The neutral "ideology" is for all of those monarchies that were autocratic and did not have elections but they could not be grouped together in the fascist camp.
 
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As far as I can see, Hungary at that point still had most of the trappings of a Constitutional Monarchy, along with some Fascist characteristics from the military overthrow of the brief Communist coup. It was not quite Monarchy, not exactly Fascism, and only somewhat Democratic (mainly at the more local and regional levels), with restricted access at the national level barring ethnic non-Magyars from holding higher offices, but no official restrictions on education or political involvement at the local level. While there was some support for both Communism and National Socialism (as in most other countries at the time), those were both being suppressed to varying degrees by the government.

One of the more heavily Nazi-leaning officials was eventually discredited (much to the relief of most of the government) when it was discovered that his grandmother had been Jewish, not that being Jewish was a problem (there was at least one Jewish Cabinet member), but that the Nazi racism thing came off as ridiculous coming from someone who was partly what he was ranting against.

Quite simply, Hungary doesn't fit squarely into any of the neat and tidy categories which the game shoehorns various nations into. Poland likewise doesn't quite fall into the "Fascist" camp, and Romania was clearly not the ideal of Democracy.

I think that HOI3's political representations had the potential to be far better, but the game failed to make those distinctions relevant in the actual game mechanics, particularly with regard to the degree of cooperation, political drift, and other factors. In my opinion, making Conservative and Democratic Socialist parties provide a slight bias toward their own ends of the political spectrum, and a slight bias against the opposite form, would have been much better, rather than treating them all identically. Example: A Conservative party could have only 80% of the normal drift toward a Democracy faction and 20% toward the Fascist end. Democratic Socialists might only get 80% drift toward Democracy and 20% toward Communism. An Authoritarian state might only get 80% drift toward a Fascist faction, and 20% toward Democracy, while a Radical Socialist party would see an 80% drift toward Communism and 20% toward Democracy. That would have made adjacent forms of government tend to act a bit more alike, rather than having an ideological chasm between the 3 basic forms of government.

Hopefully, the inevitable Expansions for HOI4 will include something more realistic for the political end of the game.
 
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Horthy was simply conservative-nationalist. He joined Hitler, because he only saw this chane to get back territories which have been lost in the treaty of Trianon.
 
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Horthy was simply conservative-nationalist. He joined Hitler, because he only saw this chane to get back territories which have been lost in the treaty of Trianon.
He joined Hitler because there was no other choice. Hitler was shrewd enough to offer both a carrot and a stick. The carrot: "behave, and I'll see that you get back some of your land". The stick: "misbehave and share the same fate as Czechoslovakia and Poland".

Horthy was no fan of Hitler's, and there had been a few heated words exchanged in a previous meeting. Given the hard choice between regaining lost land at the cost of being implicated in Germany's crime, or being forcibly occupied, he opted for survival. Even then, it wasn't an easy decision.

There's an interesting book written by a former US Ambassador to Hungary entitled "Hungary, the unwilling satellite", which covers a lot of the events leading up to war from a third-party diplomat's perspective. I found several other books on the subject to be either blatantly apologetic towards Hungary, or blatantly antagonistic, but nothing else that seems to cover it from a more-or-less impartial, although sympathetic, angle.
 
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Horthy's governement is improperly fasist, rightly is constitutional monarchy.
Szálasi was national socialist, Hitler was national socialist, Mussolini was non national socialist, Stalin was international socialist.

Horthy was right-sided, others was left-sided, this is the difference.
Dont disturb you that, Hungary governement was "Bitter Loser" and nacionalist.

Government type and ideology are different. People need to stop conflating government type and government ideology. They can be mixed match and one has no causal relation to the other.
Italy was also a constitutional monarchy under fascism.
It was still fascist.

Stop talking about national socialism. National socialism is irrelevant.
ie. In Czechoslovakia there were the Sudetenland german national socialists, who were at best a fringe party with tiny support. Then there was the Italian-style fascist Národní obec fašistická under Gajda which actually had probably 5-6 times the support of the national socialists. And they were not the same party, or the same. Just like a country can have more than one centrist democratic party which are not the same, and maybe don't agree and don't get along. In fact in most countries there were multiple fascist parties in competition with each other and the two types were often, national socialism vs Italian-style fascism. Sadly everyone on this forum seems to equate the word fascism with national socialism when national socialism was NOT the most popular of the two in most of the world. Italian style corporatist fascism was the more common fascism outside of Germany.

a Hungary-Italy comparison is instructive here:

Monarchs:
Italy = Vittoria Emanuele
Hunagry = Horothy (regent)

Government leader:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = It changed.

Person with ACTUAL control in the sense of the fascist personality cult and centralization:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = Horthy

The criticism by people of a fascist Hungary under Horthy stems from a lack of knowledge and understanding of history and politics, not any problem with the game.

It is correct how it is.
 
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a Hungary-Italy comparison is instructive here:

Monarchs:
Italy = Vittoria Emanuele
Hunagry = Horothy (regent)

Government leader:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = It changed.

Person with ACTUAL control in the sense of the fascist personality cult and centralization:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = Horthy

The criticism by people of a fascist Hungary under Horthy stems from a lack of knowledge and understanding of history and politics, not any problem with the game.

It is correct how it is.

It is not correct.
Hungary political ideology was conservative-revizionist.
And yes Horthy actual imprisoned the leaders of communist and national socialism.
 
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irrelevant

Also not correct.

Hungary govenerment type was limited parliamentary democracy.
Hungary political ideology was conservative-revizionist.
Hungary-Italy comparison is instructive here:

Monarch:
Italy= Victor Emanuele
Hungary=Horthy

Government leader:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = actual prime minister

Person with ACTUAL control in the sense of the fascist personality cult and centralization:
Italy = Mussolini
Hungary = not have
 
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jurascsik is correct, Horthy's powers were very limited in actuality, but his position and persona as Regent went a long way toward persuading people. In short, he had connections and pull, but not nearly as much actual authority as Mussolini. Everything still required a vote, and he couldn't actually introduce legislation, just convince the right people to do it.

Note that unlike a lot of other Monarchies, Hungary's power was NOT tied to the royal persona, it was vested in the Crown of St. Steven. The king's solemn duty was to utilize that authority to run the country and protect the crown. Horthy was merely the safe-keeper of the crown in the absence of a king. The personal ideologies of Horthy, the cabinet, and the majority of the parliament were definitely right-leaning, but "Fascist" is really not that accurate.
 
So as you can see with world war Wednesday Hungary campaign that the "Horthy Government" is fascist, I think they should be considered more neutral because at the end of world war II when Hungary attempted to switch

You make some good points but we can't forget that fascist != Axis.

A good example is Nationalist Spain; fascist but not officially Axis.
 
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