BattleTech Guide: Armour - When, where and how much.

[Edmon]

We try to make one of BattleTech's most mathematically difficult subjects and try to make it simple to understand: How much armour is the right amount? We then move on to the when and where of it and some tactics for making the most of Armour.

We also do a few more terrible B33f impressions because more people asked for that than for the actual topic XD.

Feedback welcome!

 

[RealCadaver]

Nice guide. I never really thought about it as much as you (obviously) have.

When I customize I start by stripping all equipment and maxing armor. Add equipment, max armor to trim, rinse and repeat as needed to get the desired result, and then fine tune based on internal equipment and desired usage, front line, bait (erm scout), fire support, with scout having the most armor and fire support having the least but still survivable.

I had glitch in the fire support mech for most missions, only 4 injuries in over 100 missions. Medusa on the other hand was in the bait and had 60 injuries in 100 missions, heh.

 

[Havamal]

Nice guide. I never really thought about it as much as you (obviously) have.
I had glitch in the fire support mech for most missions, only 4 injuries in over 100 missions. Medusa on the other hand was in the bait and had 60 injuries in 100 missions, heh.

Hmm, Is the name of the mech literally "The Bait" ?

 

[RealCadaver]

Hmm, Is the name of the mech literally "The Bait" ?

Lol, yes, yes it is. I was running 4 Highlanders in my last campaign, started naming them for their roles to keep them straight.

 

[Edmon]

Lol, yes, yes it is. I was running 4 Highlanders in my last campaign, started naming them for their roles to keep them straight.

Love it, as you can see from my video, my 'mechs have ... errr... names? XD.

 

[Morokael]

If I could swear on this forum, I would add a word in front of this, but.... - FANTASTIC! You really have a knack for writing and delivering these videos. Thank you so much for your gift to the community!

So. Some Questions:

1) I have found that legs seem to be hit less often. I can't remember one of my 'mechs getting legged. I have definitely not lost a 'mech to having both legs destroyed. If I don't have the tonnage to do max armour for whatever design decisions I made, I tend to try to max everything else and leave the legs a little bare. Do you have a recommendation? For example, on a custom Quickdraw you will probably not have a shield side, and will have weapons in each location. In that case, do you shave a few points off every location? Do you remove back armour more? I realize you can't give me a clear rule that works every time.

2) Due to Brace/Bulwark, and to a lesser extent some terrain features, armour can actually be worth "more", or I guess damage is worth "less". Bulwark doesn't exactly double the value of armour, because of things like rear shots, stability, and Breaching Shot but it's still a big bonus. If you were to design a 100 ton 'mech that would be enjoying the Bulwark bonus most of the time, do you feel max armour is still valuable? In other words, how do Bulwark and other damage reduction effects affect your 10% firepower estimation tool. Would you say it gets down to 5%? I didn't crunch the numbers that you did (and probably can't), so I'm wondering if you know what that 7-10% would change to.

3) Let's say it's 4v4, and one of your 'mechs is heavily damaged across the front. Your suggestion is to sprint away and present your armoured back to the opponent. What if the AI (or your human opponent) doesn't take the bait and shoot your 'mech running away? You have completely removed a 'mech's firepower from your side for that turn. Assuming (hoping?) that your opponent is going to shoot a 'mech with evasion pips in the pristine back armour doesn't seem like a good strategy to rely on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your 3 good 'mechs can handle the opponent's 4 'mechs for long enough to wipe out a significant portion of their firepower so your weakened 'mech can come back - do you really need to sprint? Wouldn't it be better to get your heavily damaged 'mech into a reasonable position where it can still shoot? In a game counting c-bills, and where some 'mechs are not replaceable, I can understand the idea of sprinting out - but if you just want to win that fight, don't you keep shooting?

PS. I'm ok with no more impressions. I just marvel at how good of a TheB33f you can do. It's dead on. So thanks as well for humouring me and the other 5 for this video. Please keep making more, and don't feel pressured to do any impressions.

 

[Edmon]

If I could swear on this forum, I would add a word in front of this, but.... - FANTASTIC! You really have a knack for writing and delivering these videos. Thank you so much for your gift to the community!

I'm honoured. Thanks .

So. Some Questions:

1) I have found that legs seem to be hit less often. I can't remember one of my 'mechs getting legged. I have definitely not lost a 'mech to having both legs destroyed. If I don't have the tonnage to do max armour for whatever design decisions I made, I tend to try to max everything else and leave the legs a little bare. Do you have a recommendation? For example, on a custom Quickdraw you will probably not have a shield side, and will have weapons in each location. In that case, do you shave a few points off every location? Do you remove back armour more? I realize you can't give me a clear rule that works every time.

The A.I. will target your legs, if they are particularly soft and you fall over, so I don't like to risk having really weak legs. That said, if you aren't going to DFA, you can make it such that your legs armour + structure = CT armour + 25% structure or so. This makes it slightly easier to take your mech out by the legs, but strictly speaking, that shouldn't happen because they are somewhat hard to focus. I also tend to trim arms with no weapons. I even sometimes trim the head such that it'll survive a PPC hit, by like 1 HP.

2) Due to Brace/Bulwark, and to a lesser extent some terrain features, armour can actually be worth "more", or I guess damage is worth "less". Bulwark doesn't exactly double the value of armour, because of things like rear shots, stability, and Breaching Shot but it's still a big bonus. If you were to design a 100 ton 'mech that would be enjoying the Bulwark bonus most of the time, do you feel max armour is still valuable? In other words, how do Bulwark and other damage reduction effects affect your 10% firepower estimation tool. Would you say it gets down to 5%? I didn't crunch the numbers that you did (and probably can't), so I'm wondering if you know what that 7-10% would change to.

Armour gains value as firepower increases (and equalizes between you and your enemy). Bulkwark increases your armour relative to your firepower (and relative to enemy firepower) so the percentage would go the other way. You'd want to add firepower if it added at least 4-5% more damage (or greater). The math once again, would be terrifying so I can just give you a general idea...

3) Let's say it's 4v4, and one of your 'mechs is heavily damaged across the front. Your suggestion is to sprint away and present your armoured back to the opponent. What if the AI (or your human opponent) doesn't take the bait and shoot your 'mech running away? You have completely removed a 'mech's firepower from your side for that turn. Assuming (hoping?) that your opponent is going to shoot a 'mech with evasion pips in the pristine back armour doesn't seem like a good strategy to rely on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your 3 good 'mechs can handle the opponent's 4 'mechs for long enough to wipe out a significant portion of their firepower so your weakened 'mech can come back - do you really need to sprint? Wouldn't it be better to get your heavily damaged 'mech into a reasonable position where it can still shoot? In a game counting c-bills, and where some 'mechs are not replaceable, I can understand the idea of sprinting out - but if you just want to win that fight, don't you keep shooting?

The idea is that you keep your 'mech alive for another turn and the enemy either has to take the bait, or switch targets to another 'mech that still has heavy armour. Why buy a turn at the cost of losing 25% of your firepower? Well, if the enemy loses firepower that turn (you are focusing one of theirs too, right?) when your re-engage with the damaged mech, there will be less enemy firepower to shoot at it with and thus, the value of whatever armour it has left increases.

You can also sprint to a position where the enemy cannot focus it or even more amusingly, through the enemy to the other side of them. Forcing them to turn mechs around to face the threat now on the wrong side of them. There are lots of ways to abuse this tactic, but it IS situational.

PS. I'm ok with no more impressions. I just marvel at how good of a TheB33f you can do. It's dead on. So thanks as well for humouring me and the other 5 for this video. Please keep making more, and don't feel pressured to do any impressions.

Haha, it's fun. Don't mention it .

 

[Morokael]

The A.I. will target your legs

Does the AI have access to Precision Shot, or is this limited to Called Shots when you get knocked over or shutdown?

You'd want to add firepower if it added at least 4-5% more damage (or greater).

Thought so. Thank you for the confirmation.

The idea is that you keep your 'mech alive for another turn and the enemy either has to take the bait, or switch targets to another 'mech that still has heavy armour. Why buy a turn at the cost of losing 25% of your firepower? Well, if the enemy loses firepower that turn (you are focusing one of theirs too, right?) when your re-engage with the damaged mech, there will be less enemy firepower to shoot at it with and thus, the value of whatever armour it has left increases.

I agree that the damaged 'mech is better off (armour is more valuable) if I can get rid of some firepower, mathematically. I just -FEEL- that someone will have a higher success chance with shooting compared to sprinting. If I can figure out a way to say it, I'll post again.

You can also sprint to a position where the enemy cannot focus it or even more amusingly, through the enemy to the other side of them. Forcing them to turn mechs around to face the threat now on the wrong side of them. There are lots of ways to abuse this tactic, but it IS situational.

Well that I had not thought of. That does make it more useful, especially if your opponent has skimped on back armour for their "dps" 'mechs. This is probably one of the bigger takeaways for me on this video.

 

[Kvyrokranaxyyit]

Great video, gave me a lot to think about armor placement.

Spoiler

It turns out not all of the b33f's mech building lessons are exactly....applicable.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

How you armour your 'Mechs also depends on how you use them in combat. Some people might want to strip almost all the armour off their LRM boat to add another launcher and some more ammo, and while that might increase the strength of their alpha strike it also requires you to keep that 'Mech hidden away from the enemy. Giving the AI one less target to deal with helps them focus their fire on to the other three 'Mechs in your lance, and increases the risk of your losing a 'Mech (which seriously cuts into the amount of damage you can throw out each turn, and risks a snowballing effect where the remaining AI forces have even fewer targets, consequently further increasing the focus of their fire),

While there aren't many strategies that translate well from MWO to BATTLETECH, "share your armour" certainly does. Particularly with Bulwark effectively doubling your armour if you utilize it well.

Let's take the extremes of either end: a Sleepy Awesome (sacrificing everything for the sake of more PPCs) and a fully armoured Atlas (sporting 22.5 tons of armour, at 1800 points, and which can still carry a respectable weapons payload that is more than capable of destroy most anything it comes across). A Sleepy Awesome can dish out a 300 point alpha strike, which only takes 1/6 of the armour off of a fully armoured Atlas that isn't using Bulwark. If the Atlas does stay Bulwarked, the Sleepy Awesome would need to alpha strike 12 times to strip a fully armoured Atlas (which would take 24 turns, incur the damage of 12 overheat/shutdowns, and leave your Sleepy Awesome vulnerable to called shots every other turn. I think the overheat damage alone would kill the Sleepy Awesome, at that point).

As you so astutely noted, you quickly reach a point where the value of armour is higher than the value of an extra one or two tons worth of weapons, and Bulwark swings things wildly in favour of the "more armour" side.

Great video.

 

[Pherdnut]

I wanted an answer something like this when I had that question:

I basically have 3 types:

Close-Quarters (rear-armor matters)
Front-Line (rear-armor matters less)
Sniper/LRM Boat (all armor matters less)

For the first two, at a minimum I like to have the following:

Full Arms, Full legs, Full side torsos in front. Core at full side torso strength. Rear armors at ~50%.

It's important arms/legs get fully armored because they can be hit from multiple facings. Even if you have no weapons or gear in an arm, losing it makes it much more likely the torso it was connected to will take a hit because you still roll on the same hit location table and arm hit balls roll downhill to torsos and then cores.

If a mech is close-quarters, I go for full rear armor and any extra core armor I can spare. If you melee and knock down a mech, it could easily hop up next turn and run/jump behind you and do serious damage to your backside. You can't afford to leave that less than full armor if you regularly get close to other mechs.

The reason I shave from the core is because I mostly lead with the healthiest flank. Only my snipers/LRM-boats don't have jump-jets so I have lots of control over what sides I expose after a move. By flipping back and forth as hits are incurred, I've found I can regularly get through missions with at most 1 part getting its armor punctured most of the time. If both sides get pretty beat up, I'll face the most mechd possible with my front to make it less likely either side gets focused. LRM-Boats and snipers really only just need enough armor for one thing, to survive long enough if they get surprised to sprint away and take a couple hits before they get rescued by the front-line mechs.

The boats/snipers need to be able to survive a single surprise. If you strip all armor off you're going to get screwed eventually but if you can weather just a couple non-AC/20 hits in a location, you're usually good with long range mechs.

 

[Edmon]

Does the AI have access to Precision Shot, or is this limited to Called Shots when you get knocked over or shutdown?

Yes and it will (to my surprise at the time) go for legs if it works out that'll kill you quickly.

 

[Morokael]

Is this skirmish only, or in the campaign sandbox?

 

[Edmon]

Is this skirmish only, or in the campaign sandbox?

Both as far as I am aware. I do not believe the A.I. is any different depending on mode, but only a developer could confirm that.

 

[RealCadaver]

The AI uses precision shot? I thought it was only called shots on downed mechs.

 

[Edmon]

The AI uses precision shot? I thought it was only called shots on downed mechs.

I am honestly unsure, called shots on shutdown and knocked over 'mechs, definitely. And it will, during those, choose to aim for the legs if they are very soft.

Precision shots, not sure, I don't believe it says anything to "the other player" when you do this move, I am not sure how you tell it's happening.

 

[BunglingLummox]

I am not sure how you tell it's happening

Surely you'd watch the initiative? Precise shot tanks it.

 

[Edmon]

Surely you'd watch the initiative? Precise shot tanks it.

I can't say I've been that, pardon the pun, vigilant XD.

 

[RealCadaver]

They definitely go after the legs and the head with called shots, its announced (well there's text indicating it). Not sure how you would know if they were using precision shot, never saw any text on an incoming shot on a standing mech that indicated a precision shot was occurring, of course, could have missed it. I thought the morale functionality was restricted to the player only. If they can use precision shot, why not vigilance?

 

[scJazz]

We try to make one of BattleTech's most mathematically difficult subjects and try to make it simple to understand: How much armour is the right amount? We then move on to the when and where of it and some tactics for making the most of Armour.

We also do a few more terrible B33f impressions because more people asked for that than for the actual topic XD.

Thanks for another great video!

You must include at least one TheB33f impression in each video. You are good at it and honestly I watch with anticipation for when it will get thrown in never fails to give me a chuckle.

The whole subject is deeply complex as you note, repeatedly. You did a good job making it approachable.

Comments
1 ) Armor levels for BATTLETECH are different from TT. Specifically, the rear torso armor. In TT the max armor of a 100 ton mech is a bit over 19 tons. In BATTLETECH it is ~22.5 tons. I point this out not to be pedantic but so that TT Grognards are aware.

2 ) I might argue that armor levels for the rear arc are less important than you portray them. Yes, the Sprint away stunt is valid. However, it is mitigated by the fact that not all shots will hit the rear torsos (unless I am an idiot and missed something important regarding BATTLETECH's rear arc Location Tables). I use have used 50 pts of armor, or 55, as the magic number almost exclusively. Being able to soak some damage, instead of all, is perhaps a better strategy. Again this gets weird. Might even be a case of my own confirmation bias because ALL of my mechs ALWAYS have full JJ and so I never HAVE to present the rear arc.