After watching todays livestream, I'm concerned about the 1.4 AI

[Adrized]

I noticed a couple of glaring issues while watching the stream today.

• Germany is STILL railroaded to do Anschluss and Demand Sudetenland. Seriously, what's the point of reforming Austria-Hungary if you're just gonna end up at war with Germany 100% of the time? Not to mention Germany rushing Danzig or War DESPITE being at war with Hungary, which leads us to my next point,
• AI front abandonment. So if we disregard the fact that Germany suicided into Poland for no reason, their military actions after doing so were.. questionable. They sent lots of divisions away from the Hungarian border to(I think?) Poland. Daniel had many open spots he could just storm Germany from, but he probably didn't because they didn't want the AI to look bad.
• AI still not taking undefended territory? Look closely at Tirol after Germany declared on him. Despite there being no divisions guarding the land, Germany didn't do shit with their troops. They just stood there staring over the border, when taking the land would have drastically shortened the front for them as well as weakening Hungary in general. Actually, the AI didn't attack at all. Pretty much nowhere on the Hungarian border did Germany attack except for the very end. Daniel noticed this and began blaming "hot code" and saying stuff like "yeah we'll have to look at this". Regardless of your excuses, this doesn't give me more hope for the ai.

Please don't take this as hate or anything like that. I am simply pointing out obvious problems that I noticed while watching the stream that I was hoping would be fixed, or at least worked on.

 

[Drewoid13]

Yea. Ai has a way to go yet.

 

[Gwydion5]

I'd just wait till 1.4 / 1.4 open beta is released before expressing concerns. There have just been so many posts about the big AI issues by the community that it's kind of pointless to talk about them. PDS is aware of the issues, either they will have them fixed for 1.4 or they won't. PDS is aware of how badly AI needs fixing. PDS is aware of how disgruntled we are about the AI. There is just nothing more to be said or done right now other than wait and see what 1.4 is like.

 

[Da9L]

I noticed a couple of glaring issues while watching the stream today.

• Germany is STILL railroaded to do Anschluss and Demand Sudetenland. Seriously, what's the point of reforming Austria-Hungary if you're just gonna end up at war with Germany 100% of the time? Not to mention Germany rushing Danzig or War DESPITE being at war with Hungary, which leads us to my next point,
• AI front abandonment. So if we disregard the fact that Germany suicided into Poland for no reason, their military actions after doing so were.. questionable. They sent lots of divisions away from the Hungarian border to(I think?) Poland. Daniel had many open spots he could just storm Germany from, but he probably didn't because they didn't want the AI to look bad.
• AI still not taking undefended territory? Look closely at Tirol after Germany declared on him. Despite there being no divisions guarding the land, Germany didn't do shit with their troops. They just stood there staring over the border, when taking the land would have drastically shortened the front for them as well as weakening Hungary in general. Actually, the AI didn't attack at all. Pretty much nowhere on the Hungarian border did Germany attack except for the very end. Daniel noticed this and began blaming "hot code" and saying stuff like "yeah we'll have to look at this". Regardless of your excuses, this doesn't give me more hope for the ai.

Please don't take this as hate or anything like that. I am simply pointing out obvious problems that I noticed while watching the stream that I was hoping would be fixed, or at least worked on.

Well, I was playing with historical focuses so the AI would do the historical focuses.

It was most likely just my vision, I had no decryption and they probably had. (this might actually not make a difference xD I don't know.) I did try to attack in the "open slots" but as you saw my units moved and encountered a german unit there. And if it abandoned the front that is a bug.

"blaming hot code" Hot code = none tested code which means AI stuff that might have been checked in and not been tested may cause issues like this. But yes, it's still a issue that need to be looked at.

 

[afb]

• Germany is STILL railroaded to do Anschluss and Demand Sudetenland. Seriously, what's the point of reforming Austria-Hungary if you're just gonna end up at war with Germany 100% of the time?

From what Da9l said, I gathered that he probably could have gone fascist along the way through the cabinet if he had started at it sooner, and thereby prevented it by joining the Axis. Also: Recreating the Habsburg Empire shouldn't be something you can just do without difficulties.

 

[amalric de g.]

I noticed a couple of glaring issues while watching the stream today.

• Germany is STILL railroaded to do Anschluss and Demand Sudetenland. Seriously, what's the point of reforming Austria-Hungary if you're just gonna end up at war with Germany 100% of the time? Not to mention Germany rushing Danzig or War DESPITE being at war with Hungary, which leads us to my next point,
• AI front abandonment. So if we disregard the fact that Germany suicided into Poland for no reason, their military actions after doing so were.. questionable. They sent lots of divisions away from the Hungarian border to(I think?) Poland. Daniel had many open spots he could just storm Germany from, but he probably didn't because they didn't want the AI to look bad.
• AI still not taking undefended territory? Look closely at Tirol after Germany declared on him. Despite there being no divisions guarding the land, Germany didn't do shit with their troops. They just stood there staring over the border, when taking the land would have drastically shortened the front for them as well as weakening Hungary in general. Actually, the AI didn't attack at all. Pretty much nowhere on the Hungarian border did Germany attack except for the very end. Daniel noticed this and began blaming "hot code" and saying stuff like "yeah we'll have to look at this". Regardless of your excuses, this doesn't give me more hope for the ai.

Please don't take this as hate or anything like that. I am simply pointing out obvious problems that I noticed while watching the stream that I was hoping would be fixed, or at least worked on.

Do you really think that Hitler would be happy, that Hungary restores the KuK Empire? I think not. Even we don´t look on the historical side, the NFs railroad countries into certain actions, thats it sadly.

I really hope, that PDX fix the front abandonment in 1.4.

Thats the battleplanner, until every unit is ready (aka has shuffled for months sometimes) and the Battleplan is finished the AI didn´t move one inch.

 

[Sourlol]

I don't understand this railroading argument. For one they were on historical focus. Secondly, do you complain when terrorists plant bomb on B, do you complain when a character has a competent build in LoL/Dota/HotS?

Germany taking anschluss and demand sudentenland are central tenants of playing Germany. Even with historical focus off, would Germany who as of January 1, 1936 had stated goals of unifying Germanic peoples just sat idly by while Hungarians attempt, from a German perspective, poach what is rightfully theirs? If the Germans just sat there watching the player amass an empire doing nothing but building an army until they got declared upon, is that good AI?

You assume control of a nation on January 1, 1936, your country carries its baggage with it, you have to tools to reshape and reform it, but it must start from a snapshot of historical authenticity--if not what is the point of modeling the time period? Unless you are playing this like a twitch RTS, you must appreciate the flavor. It is laughably nonsensical to think Hitler would have sat idly by as a resurgent Austro Hungarian Empire was formed.

 

[Adrized]

I don't understand this railroading argument. For one they were on historical focus. Secondly, do you complain when terrorists plant bomb on B, do you complain when a character has a competent build in LoL/Dota/HotS?

Germany taking anschluss and demand sudentenland are central tenants of playing Germany. Even with historical focus off, would Germany who as of January 1, 1936 had stated goals of unifying Germanic peoples just sat idly by while Hungarians attempt, from a German perspective, poach what is rightfully theirs? If the Germans just sat there watching the player amass an empire doing nothing but building an army until they got declared upon, is that good AI?

You assume control of a nation on January 1, 1936, your country carries its baggage with it, you have to tools to reshape and reform it, but it must start from a snapshot of historical authenticity--if not what is the point of modeling the time period? Unless you are playing this like a twitch RTS, you must appreciate the flavor. It is laughably nonsensical to think Hitler would have sat idly by as a resurgent Austro Hungarian Empire was formed.

My point is that there should be some check to prevent the AI from suiciding into Poland/Benelux/Scandinavia for no reason if they're preoccupied.

Kind of like how the AI won't take the "war with the USSR" focus if they're fighting someone they share a border with.

 

[Sourlol]

Yeah, I would like less suicidal behavior. If the AI was as good as players, I could see an advantage to declaring on Poland while fighting Hungary, but with the management skills of the AI that would likely result in failure.

However, in the defense of the AI. When I last played France I was able to hold off Germans at the maginot, so they declared on Benelux, I was still able to hold. I was nearly ready to push east when the Spanish declared on me (joined the German war). The conflict with them took many months--as I was completely out of position when it happened. I wasn't allied with UK or anyone.

During this time, Germany either fortuitously or intentionally declared on Scandinavia and took all of that.

Even in 1946 USSR and Germany hadnt gone to war.

I guess my point is, in the current live game, the AI had started other wars while preoccupied. But those wars didnt back fire.

 

[Telenil]

It was most likely just my vision, I had no decryption and they probably had. (this might actually not make a difference xD I don't know.)

I think it does. "Unit appearing in a seemingly empty province" only ever happened to me in games when I was behind in encryption/decryption.

 

[Drewoid13]

Yeah, I would like less suicidal behavior. If the AI was as good as players, I could see an advantage to declaring on Poland while fighting Hungary, but with the management skills of the AI that would likely result in failure.

However, in the defense of the AI. When I last played France I was able to hold off Germans at the maginot, so they declared on Benelux, I was still able to hold. I was nearly ready to push east when the Spanish declared on me (joined the German war). The conflict with them took many months--as I was completely out of position when it happened. I wasn't allied with UK or anyone.

During this time, Germany either fortuitously or intentionally declared on Scandinavia and took all of that.

Even in 1946 USSR and Germany hadnt gone to war.

I guess my point is, in the current live game, the AI had started other wars while preoccupied. But those wars didnt back fire.

And then there's Germany getting creamed by the USSR but for some reason declares war on Yugoslavia....

 

[durbal]

Here's my obligatory NFs-suck-and-need-to-be-removed post.

 

[Zubrowka]

To be fair to the AI, which must improve I agree, IRL Germany still suicided into Russia in 1941 while still at war with the UK, various partisans and armies in exile. Before you brand that to be facetious resistance, consider the known effects of the blockade, the loss of aerial superiority to the RAF, and the foreseeably long supply route over occupied Poland and Soviet territory, all weighing against such a venture.

I'm all for the AI taking some bold risks at the strategic level simply because that is the character and history of this time period. Accordingly, the tactical battle stuff should be the focus area for fixing the AI.

 

[Adrized]

Here's my obligatory NFs-suck-and-need-to-be-removed post.

I like the NF system. I just think the major's trees are too railroaded.

 

[amalric de g.]

I like the NF system. I just think the major's trees are too railroaded.

PDX decision to implement the NFs as a guiding rope for the player and AI, is not bad as a design decision, but they didn´t put enough effort into the NFs. Even today after ten months and some patches, they didn´t fix the loopholes of the NFs and the NFs lack content if you choose to go a alternative path (US going commie etc.).

 

[durbal]

I like the NF system. I just think the major's trees are too railroaded.

They all are, and that's why they're bad. They're taking the place of real diplomacy and with the worst end result possible.

 

[Adrized]

They all are, and that's why they're bad. They're taking the place of real diplomacy and with the worst end result possible.

The TFV trees aren't railroaded in the same way. The devs should revamp all the trees in a similiar way to how they're making the TFV and DoD trees.

 

[RedBarron]

The TFV trees aren't railroaded in the same way. The devs should revamp all the trees in a similiar way to how they're making the TFV and DoD trees.

I think we will get to see how well they can accomplish this with the new DoD trees.

Of course, they are also integrating new features in DoD that they want the new NF trees to incorporate, so that mucks up the pond a bit.

And then of course, since NF trees tend to interact with other nations, the other nations NF trees might have odd conflicts.

Diplomacy is messy.

 

[Nevrion]

Yes, I took a deep breath, when I saw that German units didn't take the abandoned territory, because in this state of the game (released about a year ago) something like that shouldn't happen. It was confusing, because Germany did attack after Italy joined the Axis.

I think we are allowed to be concerned, because something like this shouldn't happen in this state of the game. But, because it happened, I am pretty sure, Daniel took his whip after the broadcast and give his best to motivate the AI developer

 

[Grallak]

Did the AI suicide a lot in hoi3?