Day 1 Assisting Research

[Ryika]

- Delaying your guaranteed habitable settlement. Usually you should be able to have it touching down by 2203, if playing an origin with such habitables at least.

Why would it delay habitable settlements in any other case except when they're right next door? If they're 2 systems away, you'll still get them before your Colony Ship is ready to settle down, and if they're further away, Influence will be your timer no matter what choice you make.

- That additional information which will guide your play. (How much free space do I have? How close is the nearest genoicidal?)

You'll easily get that information in either case though. The second, third and fourth Science Ships will gather it long before you actually need it.

- If playing the proactive first contact, the influence you can get from sending science ships as far away as you can to get as many first contacts as possible to farm influence. I'm particularly fond of this on my recent voide dweller plays.

This I don't really understand. Finding those contacts further away from you is so far down the line, by then you can have a dozen or so Science Ships flying around if you wish to. Whether you locked the first Science Ship into Assist Research or (for example) the fourth one, has next to no impact on the amount of information you will have collected at this point in the game. It's just ~a year of information not having been collected by one ship, compared to a decade of half a dozen or more ships flying around.

Realistically, both paths likely don't have much of an impact on the overall game. It's a few months of extra science at a time when you're not producing a lot yet vs. a few months of extra exploration on one ship. Both become completely insignificant once you starting pushing out science ships and spamming labs.

 

[Badesumofu]

all these arguments are countered if you just build one more ship.

Except they aren't because you should be building more ships anyway and there far more important things for them to do than give you a trivial amount of science. By the time you're building more research buildings you can probably spare a science ship and scientist to assist research but not while there is useful exploring they could be doing. You will at some point reach a situation where the most useful thing one of your many science ships could be doing is assisting, but it's not likely to be until you have quite a few of them.

 

[aroddo]

Except they aren't because you should be building more ships anyway and there far more important things for them to do than give you a trivial amount of science. By the time you're building more research buildings you can probably spare a science ship and scientist to assist research but not while there is useful exploring they could be doing. You will at some point reach a situation where the most useful thing one of your many science ships could be doing is assisting, but it's not likely to be until you have quite a few of them.

Right. The amount of bonus science is so trivial that the corresponding race trait is worth 2 points.

Anyway, a level 1 assist gives you a research advantage of 4 months for all categories. It takes 2 months to build another science ship (and about 2 energy extra upkeep).

I say you can spare the 2 month delay at virtually any time.
Exploration is important, but no one argued that you should stop exploring. The only consideration is if the extra cost and upkeep is worth it.

This merely gives you an option of speeding up early research even further.

 

[fusei]

It takes 2 months to build another science ship (and about 2 energy extra upkeep).

So what you're actually trying to say is that 2 science ships are better than one? That's kind of trivial.

 

[otro_dia]

Right. The amount of bonus science is so trivial that the corresponding race trait is worth 2 points.

At the start of the game just a 10% it pretty trivial, because the science output is too small to make really a difference.

If we wanted, for example, to have the destroyer tech appear as soon as possible, the chances that appear, for example again, at year 15 will be more dependant on RNG than in that science ship from beginning. It will be much more time efficient if you send the first ship to survey the first colony. Or at least, I see it that way. You can still put the science ship 10 years later and you barely will have lagged tech wise.

Edit: sorry, I think I should have elaborated a bit more. You are not only delaying exploration and your first colony for 2 months. You are also delaying the moment in where you will be able to clear the blockers on your capital, which will give you one pop instantly and will also increase pop growth massively. I think these are what makes that 10% from day one less substantial than all these things.

 

[Franton]

Anyway, a level 1 assist gives you a research advantage of 4 months for all categories. It takes 2 months to build another science ship (and about 2 energy extra upkeep).

Wrong. You can't simply neglect the alloy cost for the ship and the energy cost for the science leader: while the former can be covered by about 6 months of production, you can't get that much energy within 6 months without selling all your surplus food and CGs (which is exactly what I do). The upkeep is only an afterthought that doesn't have any meaning throughout the first 5 years.

 

[Valves1998]

Anomalistic rewards scale with scientific income. So extra science gives extra rewards as well.

But it's not worth it, as we only have two researchers (or 4 if the first construction is another laboratory). And the investment cost is 100 alloy and 200 energy at the start of the game. I personally only place a ship to assist when I have at least 10 researchers

 

[Dr. B]

Setting a scientist to assist research in the first 5-10 years is a good idea, yes.

But heavens no, not the first one! You need all the scouting you can get, the opportunity cost is huge.

What if you find (and colonize) a habitable world a year or two earlier? Or discover a neighbor to get you influence to take over a strategically vital system before a neighbor? A very small amount of science is never worth this opportunity cost as well as energy, alloys and upkeep for an extra ship+scientist at the very beginning!

Edit: also delays the needed energy to clear the blocker for extra 1 pop

 

[aroddo]

It really depends on the flow of the game.
In my experience, the first colony will barely be delayed by this.
If finding your guaranteed worlds fast is really that important, you skip surveying in favour of exploring anyway. That way, time ain't the issue.

Anyway, maybe better use ship #2 for assist, unless the scientists have some really awesome survey perks, in which case you'd want to delay assisting even further.

 

[HFY]

With the +1 planet sensor range in 3.0.3, my first expansion is almost always visible, and sometimes both are. Finding that first planet as fast as possible is no longer a matter of luck.


Anyway, in regards to Assist Research, if we put that in combo with "Anomalies generate tons of Research points", then the strategy we get is:

- Delay researching Anomalies until you have 2+ Research buildings and a ship doing Assist Research.

That way the Anomaly multiplier will slingshot you higher than you'd otherwise achieve, and it's still early-game, and you can dedicate a Science Ship (or several) to Anomaly research and special projects while your initial Science Ships explore fast and far.

 

[MathyM]

Anomaly research bonus scales with your empire research.

As for assist research. I find it offensive and disgusting. Before, when number of leaders were capped, it was a strategic decision. Now you are compelled to send them to every single one of your planets\habitats\rings.
And you have to keep tabs on them dying.
It clutters your leader pool.
It clutters your outline.
It adds more forced micro.

It should be removed or reworked to work like governors at the very least.
And sectors should go away too.

But developers are busy with making very important decisions like whether empire pop growth penalty should be 0.2 or 0.5

Couldn't agree more.

And it's the kind of stuff you have to open the System Map to do, so it's a major pain the butt.

Not to mention when you get attacked and those science ships scatter.

And placing 4 science ships in a single ring world, because each section counts as a different planet...

 

[HFY]

And it's the kind of stuff you have to open the System Map to do, so it's a major pain the butt.

Just FYI, you can click "Assist Research" and then click on a colony in the Outliner, and the ship will go there (and assist research).

 

[Glamazon]

It really depends on the flow of the game.
In my experience, the first colony will barely be delayed by this.
If finding your guaranteed worlds fast is really that important, you skip surveying in favour of exploring anyway. That way, time ain't the issue.

Anyway, maybe better use ship #2 for assist, unless the scientists have some really awesome survey perks, in which case you'd want to delay assisting even further.

It's not merely *finding* the guaranteed world, it's having the guaranteed world surveyed and a starbase built by the time the colony ship gets there. And again, the opportunity cost of delaying your first colonies outweighs the additional, marginal research in the long run.

 

[alexti]

Simple way to evaluate efficiency of this is to compare 2 strategies - 1st science ship is set to assist research vs 2nd science ship is set to assist research. The first strategy will produce extra 0.4*3*2=2.4 science in the first 2 months. The second strategy (we assume that the player does the same choices with the 1st science ship as with the 2nd one in the first strategy) will allow to found a colony 2 months sooner and then to build a research lab and have researchers to man it 2 months sooner (in practice, the player might choose to build something else (e.g. unity or industrial) , allowing to build an extra lab on the homeworld. Either way that means that 4*3*2=24 extra science will be produced. Various traits and modifiers can alter this comparison a bit, but considering how big is the difference, they are not going to change the conclusion.

Even more importantly the 2nd strategy will remain ahead on the population and resource curves while it catches up research before the 2nd (or even 1st) tech is researched.

 

[Franton]

Simple way to evaluate efficiency of this is to compare 2 strategies - 1st science ship is set to assist research vs 2nd science ship is set to assist research.

I beg to disagreee. My first 5+ science ships go to explore and survey, and I only bother sending one back to assist when I've found and secured suitable choke points, or when it turns out I sent one into a dead end and might as well put it to something immediately useful.

Using either the first or second ship for assisting is equally bad in my eyes, as there are almost always 2 or more directions I need to explore towards and find out if I need to hurry to grab a choke point.

P.S.: in a sense your calculation transitively supports my stance: just apply it towards the decision of using the second or third ship for assist, then on whether to use the third or fourth, ... you get the idea. Obviously there must be a break-even at some point, and that point is somwhere between the second ship and that time when there is no more suitable world to colonize, and no more important choke point to grab. But it depends on the layout of the map and the particular game.

 

[Badesumofu]

I say you can spare the 2 month delay at virtually any time.
Exploration is important, but no one argued that you should stop exploring. The only consideration is if the extra cost and upkeep is worth it.

You aren't getting it. Any science ship you have assisting is one that isn't exploring. It's not relevant that you can build more because they can also be exploring. The real cost isn't the cost of the ship plus the scientist, it's the cost of what that ship and scientist could be doing if they weren't assisting. Opportunity cost.

 

[aroddo]

You aren't getting it. Any science ship you have assisting is one that isn't exploring. It's not relevant that you can build more because they can also be exploring. The real cost isn't the cost of the ship plus the scientist, it's the cost of what that ship and scientist could be doing if they weren't assisting. Opportunity cost.

you make it sound like the opportunity to scout is lost by having one scientist assist with research.

but hey, you do you. It's a judgement call.

 

[alexti]

I beg to disagreee. My first 5+ science ships go to explore and survey, and I only bother sending one back to assist when I've found and secured suitable choke points, or when it turns out I sent one into a dead end and might as well put it to something immediately useful.

Using either the first or second ship for assisting is equally bad in my eyes, as there are almost always 2 or more directions I need to explore towards and find out if I need to hurry to grab a choke point.

P.S.: in a sense your calculation transitively supports my stance: just apply it towards the decision of using the second or third ship for assist, then on whether to use the third or fourth, ... you get the idea. Obviously there must be a break-even at some point, and that point is somwhere between the second ship and that time when there is no more suitable world to colonize, and no more important choke point to grab. But it depends on the layout of the map and the particular game.

From your explanation it sounds more like you're agreeing Applying the same calculations to the following ships becomes more difficult because the strategies can diverge depending on the game settings or strategy and it's not necessary to show that assisting with 1st ship is inefficient.

For example, having 2 first ships exploring may not guarantee that you colonize any quicker than with 1 ship. Or when doing corvette rush, one may build only 2 ships. Generally, the more your exploration outruns your expansion the more beneficial assisting research becomes. At the same time assisting research when you have very little research is not very beneficial. I tend to start assisting research when I get 3+ labs running, but it's hard to show that it's optimal (and it's like to be suboptimal in some cases)

 

[Franton]

@alexti
Indeed we do not disagree. I just appear to be loking at it with a different timescale. I like to sell food and sometimes CGs too and purchase minerals so I can build (better) districts and buildings on my home world from day 1. I also boost alloy production ASAP and purchase some more to build science ships more quickly. This is what I do in the first 2 years:

1. disable bureaucrat building and set production policy to militaristic. This gives you +2 energy, +1 CG and +1.5 Alloys at the cost of 2 unemployed specialists
2. immediately build second science ship; send first one to explore.
3. sell all food and enough CGs to purchase minerals and use them to replace commercial building with Alloy plant by 2200.02.01 (hard or impossible to do on day 1)
4. whenever you have more than 100 food, sell it
5. whenever a science ship is done, send it as far as it can go unmanned before hiring a scientist (you may be short on energy)
6. purchase enough alloys to start building third science ship by june and another by octobre
7. when Alloy plant is done, the specialists get employed, but you will now have unemployed workers; therefore immediately build 2 generator districts (purchase minerals as needed)
8. check your CG production and plan on building your first colony ship once you have enough CGs (make sure food and alloys line up)

With this technique you'll have 4 science ships on their way in year 1 before starting on the first colony ship. The tricky part is to time your purchases and sales wisely, sometimes in direct trade orders and sometimes in short-term trade deals if you need to trade smaller amounts.

You've been looking at a much larger timescale: I assume 3 labs or a corvette rush is not something you do in the first year.

 

[alexti]

I don't rush alloys. If I plan to do corvette rush, I need unity first, e.g. holo-theatre. And if I don't do corvette rush I would rather start building colony ship sooner. So while corvette or tech rush doesn't happen in year one it dictates what actions need to be taken in year 1 to set it up. Either way I don't need 4 science ships in year 1