• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Greetings!

Once again we will scour the tomes in our cartographer’s office! In the last DD we visited the Baltics, in this one we’re heading further up north – to the land of the Finns, a land of a thousand lakes and bear-gods.

As for Finland, the main reason for us doing a map update was the poor definition in the area. Anyone who has moved armies in the region knows that the pathing, at the best of times, can be quite strange – with armies often taking massive detours to reach their destination. The main contributing factor to this was the massive size of the provinces, and that they were connected to each other in illogical ways. As you can see, almost all provinces in the area have been cut up rather significantly (its rather subtle, but what constitutes ‘Pohjanmaa’ in the new image is actually three Counties). The average power of the area has not gone up significantly though, with most Counties containing at most two holdings (some even contain only one). What has gone up though is the enjoyment while playing in the area!

FinlandComparison.png

Credit, once again, goes to [Arthur-PDX]!

Code:
- Map Update to Finland
    - 8 new provinces in Finland, improving mobility and spread noticeably in the area
    - 2 new duchies in Finland (Ostrobothnia and Savonia)
    - 1 new province in Lapland, in the duchy of Kola

Please note that the time between Dev Diaries will be irregular, as we’re very early in the development cycle.
 
Since you're focusing on making the geography around the Baltic Sea more accurate and fun, is there any chance you could do the same to the character name lists? The Baltic cultures in particular have a very small amount of names to choose from, and I find that a bit dull.
 
Always pleasant to see the map getting improved!
 
Yeah, kind of serious.

06.02.2017 we got an info about some minor map changes
Servancour wrote: "Looking at the work Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2?"
There wasnt any info about the future Middle East rework. Those came up later and the changes were made public with the JD release, 16.11.2017.
That suggest that all the 2.8 map reworks have been made between 06.02 and 16.11, that is 9,3 months, and the area reworked was huuge, not to mention adding Tibet from the scratch.
Now, every 3 weeks we get wonderful reworks of kingdom-sized areas. After Poland, Baltics and Finland many people seem to expect Russia rework as well and I bet there will be riots if Africa will not be touched before CK3. India is fine, the steppes are difficult to do anything about them so what would be left is basically "just" the Western Europe and the ERE. That is much, true, but taken into consideration how much work has been done for the 2.8, the rest would be, like, 2 years of development more? Or even much less because the West is more or less fine and what it could use is mostly reshaping.
But then, seeing the quoted reaction, it makes me think that the CK2 faith is already written in stone up there, in Stockholm, and it will be less than those ~2 years. I have a feeling that we will find it out around the PDX con.
 
Yeah, kind of serious.

06.02.2017 we got an info about some minor map changes
Servancour wrote: "Looking at the work Trin Tragula does for the map on EU4, I started thinking. Why don’t we do something similar to CK2?"
There wasnt any info about the future Middle East rework. Those came up later and the changes were made public with the JD release, 16.11.2017.
That suggest that all the 2.8 map reworks have been made between 06.02 and 16.11, that is 9,3 months, and the area reworked was huuge, not to mention adding Tibet from the scratch.
Now, every 3 weeks we get wonderful reworks of kingdom-sized areas. After Poland, Baltics and Finland many people seem to expect Russia rework as well and I bet there will be riots if Africa will not be touched before CK3. India is fine, the steppes are difficult to do anything about them so what would be left is basically "just" the Western Europe and the ERE. That is much, true, but taken into consideration how much work has been done for the 2.8, the rest would be, like, 2 years of development more? Or even much less because the West is more or less fine and what it could use is mostly reshaping.
But then, seeing the quoted reaction, it makes me think that the CK2 faith is already written in stone up there, in Stockholm, and it will be less than those ~2 years. I have a feeling that we will find it out around the PDX con.

Well, it was less about me being serious as well, I just really like that gif :D We have more internal map reworks to show eventually, so hopefully people will be pleased as we continue, but there is no chance for us to "do everything", and people are using their spare time to rework the map, so it really goes into what the people in particular want to update themselves

Oh, we're talking about relativity here, the map used to be A WHOLE LOT WORSE.
445369765.jpg

"Please kill meee....."

... Just imagine I send that gif one more time as a reaction to that picture :eek: Poor Georgia, how I had forgotten your brutal first form.
 
Great Job with all of the map changes! Reading the dev diary brought back bad memories of hunting down armies in Finland during my Swedish campaign. Glad to see that's been taken care of.

The only thing that still bothers me with the new map is the roughly straight border (the exception being the "step" in the middle) that runs north of the de jure duchies of Karelia and Pohjanmaa from the Gulf of Bothnia to the White Sea. It's not a big deal, but it'd be nice to see that straight line made a little more organic looking.

Either way, glad to see the map is getting LOTS of attention and hoping that Africa won't be left out.
 
A minor suggestion: Could East-Karelia be called "Itä-Karjala" when ruled by Uralic rulers? That's the Finnish translation for the name. When we're at it, Rovaniemi could be called "Roavvenjárga" when under Sami rule and Kemi be "Giepma" under the same circumstances. Ingria would be "Ingeri" and Pskov would be "Pihkva" when Estonian and "Pihkova" when Finnish.
 
Thank you so much, Finland has been such a pain to play around because the weird large provinces.
 
Amazing update :D This will certainly add a lot to immersion, that area now feels like it is poor and you can't really do something about it.
But now, you will have more space to make it some what richer.

I hope that Rus and Ruthenia will be next (perhaps Pannonnia too, Upper Hungary and Bohemia) ^^
Did you just say Upper Hungary?
bLR7oY4.jpg

But I agree. Presporok and other areas are a bit odd.
 
Hey guys. I'm a long time Paradox fan and rarely use these forums anymore, but decided to repost what I said about this DD on reddit.

I was thrilled that Finland is getting more attention, but gotta admit I'm not 110% sure about the direction here. The increase in provinces is pretty radical and doesn't feel very justified. It made sense for sparsely populated and heavily forested Finland to have relatively big provinces that were a pain to travel through and not terribly lucrative to own. The area was due for some tweaking, but this feels like Ireland in the new EU4 expansion. Now that I think about it, most of the names of the new counties are actually from the Europa Universalis (or even Victoria) time period! This used to be a minor nuisance back in the days before tribal mechanics, like how the capital of Savo in 1066 was a castle built in 1475, but it went away when the names turned into stuff like Tribe of Savo. Not saying you can't use ahistorical place names when a proper one is hard to find, but sometimes it might be an indicator that the area wasn't terribly important back in the day.

Also, the new duchies are kinda weird. Karelia and Pohjanmaa are fine, although I agree with the guy who suggested renaming Kajaani (city) to Kainuu (region). If you look at the historical provinces of Finland then you'll see most of the inland area of the southern half of the country consists of Tavastia and Savonia (Häme and Savo or Tavastland and Savolax). On the old map they were counties next to each other and it made sense to me. They were even both large areas administered from a single castle, which is basically what a county is in CK2. The devs seem to have decided that two inland duchies would be too much, and from a gameplay POV I agree, but having Savonia as a large duchy and Tavastia as a county in the coastal duchy of Satakunta is just... I'm sorry, but it's really bad. As much as I love my native land, I have to admit that despite the numerous failings of her people and their lacking character, the region of Tavastia has historically been more significant to Finland as a whole than Savonia and became a properly populated and centrally ruled area centuries before us. There's also the fact that the coast of arms for Tavastia has a ducal and Savonia a comital coronet. Oh god, my family is going to disown me for this. Also, having the south-western coastal duchy be Satakunta seems odd. Varsinais-Suomi/Egentliga Finland was much more important historically and its capital of Turku is more central to the duchy's borders so it'd look better too.

As much as I'm complaining, I have to admit I'm struggling to find a perfect duchy/county division for Finland. I'd probably turn Satakunta into Varsinais-Suomi, slim it down to be more coastal and turn the inland area along with Savonia's western bits into Tavastia. This will probably make a Duchy of Savonia impossible, in which case I'd rather we become a part of Karelia than be a part of them. Another option would be to follow this old map and have everything be a part of a coastal duchy. I'll boot the game up, think some more and give my thoughts in case anyone might actually listen to me. For what it's worth, I have a master's degree in history and 1100 hours played in CK2.

tl;dr: big ugly provinces make sense for Finland in this time period and having all the counties called "Tribe of [historical province with legit historical name]" was good for immersion. having Savo as a big duchy with Häme as a single county is weird (better if reversed, but all options are awkward) and Finland Proper would be better as the duchy than Satakunta.
 
I would just like to throw my own round of begging for map updates in by crying "Ireland!" as loud as I can! The map updates aren't what I'm so concerned about as much as the cultures. I feel its a big misstep to not have an Anglo Irish culture for the descendants of the Normans that came in, as opposed to straight up English.

It's already been said numerous times about the province numbers in Ireland vs Scotland so I'll leave that to the people who could speak more to the population sizes at the time but one thing that always stood out to me was the lack of Anglo Irish culture and their distinction from the English.

Paradox pls....
 
I suspected that the Baltics getting changes meant that Finland would also get them, but I'm still pleasantly surprised.

That said the changes are...interesting. Something is better than nothing to be sure and many people will be very happy about this, but I'll still have to give an A for effort but B for execution.
Granted Finland is a bitch to research for someone who doesn't speak the language, though that will ultimately slow the process rather than block it.
The largest issue here is the Swedish problem, and no it's not what you might think; When Sweden gained control of Finland the so-called old provinces came to being(and even that is arguable). These old provinces do not accurately portray the Iron Age Finnish holdings or the local landholding customs; that of the heartland(rintamaa) and hunting land(erämaa) for a lack of better translation, that were the source of local conflict.

The problem then is; Which of these should be emphasized?
 
Last edited:
Overall the shape of counties in Lapland ends up being awkward due to the northern Finnish borders mirroring the modern day ones.

Reshaping the region around Bothnian Bay to form out of 2 duchies, Västerbotten and Pohjanmaa (Österbotten), should alleviate this. First one should form out of current Västerbotten and the new Kemi (Norbotten), with Kemi reshaped and rebranded to represent the general Tornio river valley region. In return Kemi could lose some of it's southern parts to Oulu to mess up the clean line between Pohjanmaa and Rovaniemi/Kemi. To make up for lost de jure duchy, Rovaniemi and Lappland can form their own duchy of Lapland, which in turn makes the Kingdom of Lapland better represent the Sápmi cultural region.
 
any chance for revised and expanded map of africa ?
 
So does this mean that you're deciding what regions to update based on whether you can think of a pun or alliterative title for a DD to showcase it?

Because that's how I'd do it.
 
You guys are just a treat <3

Keep up the great work. You guys have a release date for these map reworks or is that being cheeky?

200w.webp


So does this mean that you're deciding what regions to update based on whether you can think of a pun or alliterative title for a DD to showcase it?

Because that's how I'd do it.

Yes, we all try to come up with the best pun, then update that region, rince and repeat :D