Stellaris Dev Diary #96: Doomstacks and Ship Design

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However I'm curious, but is there a specific reason you didn't use the combat width mechanic other PDX titles use? If only X ships can engage at any moment in battle, bringing more ships than X would only mean you have reinforcements. Until the smaller side drops below X, it will be an equal exchange of ships. (Assuming similar tech levels)

YES! THIS!

These fixes do seem to make doomstacks less absolute in any given engagement, but I'm not seeing anything here that will make them less valuable. The game needs alternative strategic considerations. It needs a way for your one big fleet to keep winning battle after battle, while I still win the war.
depending on the numbers it might happen that with the new system you'll still bring all your fleets in a semi-doomstack anyway...cuz unless bonuses for "smaller fleet" will be significant enough there is no reason not to stack your fleets
 
Each one of these examples can be chalked up to terrain/ homefield advantage, which is not necessarily the case with Force Disparity. I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make, but you need to have better examples

EDIT: and much, much better tech against the aztecs and incas

Actually... No. Cortez actually only won for a few reasons: 1) the vassals and rivals of the Aztecs joined the smaller Spanish force and took losses, but ol Monty wasn't blind and let the Spanish into the capital as a symbol of surrender to a larger force. (People think the Aztec and "American" kingdoms were little more than neandrathal tribes, but they were rather sophisticated); 2) After Cortez left Monty under the charge of a lieutenant to deal with some Aztec holdouts, the lieutenant massacred the nobility and leaders of the Aztecs in a Red Wedding style affair which, ya know, kinda limited the Aztec capability to lead successful campaigns in the future (for sake of narrative, the Spanish and their coalition were booted violently out of the capital after Monty died trying to calm his outraged citizens; and 3) the icing on the cake or death knell for the Aztecs were the Spanish diseases, brought over with Europeans and their livestock, that wiped out huge swathes of the Aztec population. Unable to mount actual resistance, the kingdoms of that region fell to Spanish control.

Without going into specifics, the same general thing happened to the Incas, except civil war caused by sudden deaths in the upper echelon from diseases precluded the treachery of the Spanish conquistador. Those conquests had little to do with small forces somehow using terrain or superior tech/tactics.

But this has nothing to do with how awesome 2.0 will be for strategy and tactical engagements despite the fact that it will kill my favorite tactic of dragging a larger enemy force into an engagement, waiting for it's cruisers and corvettes to commit, and then warping a strong Corvette torpedo strike force right behind the enemy battleships.
 
Are there plans for something like a 'Fleet Template', so that you can build up and/or replace losses by pressing only a single 'fill up' button?

I like it. A Fleet "Drive Thru" on every Space station.

Admiral flies up... "Fill er up please!"
Station attendant... "Yes sir Admiral sir." Sir we have a special on "Patching Holes" this week. You interested?
Admiral... "No thanks lad. No time this Month. Gotta get back into the fight asap..."
Station attendant... "Very good sir, please advance to the PAy window!
"Ok lads. The Admiral need 23 Corvettes(Mixed), 12 Cruiser and a Battleship (in a Pear tree. LOL!" ;)
 
Personally, I'd go with a bonus to evasion for the defensive fleet rather than fire rate, simulating the inferior fleet trying to avoid the larger fleet and the battle just being lower intensity overall, rather than giving the smaller fleet more of an opportunity to damage the larger one.

Hey i like your idea it makes more sense and gives the smaller fleet more of a opportunity to withdraw to fight another day without giving free damage. Im all for this!!
 
With all of these options and the focus on specializing ships, are we also going to get the ability to create and maintain more than one design of each ship type?
You were always able to do that. Just never change the class name. Then ships of the same class will always upgrade into the new design and not into another class

But it's awkward. At the very least you should be able to specify what other class to upgrade to. Ideally there would be a fleet designer where you can specify an exact composition of the fleet.
 
For today´s standarts? yes. For THAT particular period of time? No.



Which is the question I made in my first comment in this thread: How has the doomstack problem been solved?

The proposed solution will result in exactly what we have right now, but with the extra hassle (clicks) to assemble extra fleets



You realize that the point is that, if an ancient admiral can command hundreds of vessels using primitve means, a futuristic admiral using futuristic means can do the same, right?

You also realize that the "smaller forces in those examples" had several dozens to a about a hundred and half vessels under the command of an admiral, right?

I'm not sure if someone else has pointed this out yet, but the real limit of what is possible to command in any kind of space combat has absolutely nothing to do with the capabilities of the admiral in question but the capabilities of the computers available. This is due to the distances involved. Ancient admirals did not need to deal with effectively infinite battle space and the difficulties of possible enemy positions spiraling into being completely unpredictable as time goes on. At space distances, even minor maneuvering of any of the ships involved at a large distance exponentially increases the difficulty of acquiring a firing solution, and that's without taking into affect any possible countermeasures that might exist (Such as physical CM like generating an expanding radiation cloud due to high energy particles firing through stellar gas, or electronic counter measures like bombarding incoming missiles/torpedos with fake positions of involved ships to confuse targeting sensors). The amount of factors that would need to be calculated simply to fire one weapon from one allied ship against a single enemy ship is astronomical, and even if we had instant communication of some kind eventually you would reach a point where every additional ship you add that has to be coordinated in the fleet wouldn't increase the capability of the fleet by the expected amount due to increasing the complexity of the calculations. And that's assuming that you have instant communications. If you had to deal with orders being given at the speed of light then in a large fleet you would likely be looking at minute or more delays to every order reaching the ends of the fleet further complicating any kind of calculations of enemy positions as you have to predict where they will be at that particular moment. You can just handwave it and say that the computers are perfect and can do it no problem but that's equally as arbitrary as saying that they can't and that there's a limit to what can feasibly be coordinated in each individual fleet.

As for how the firing speed increase doesn't make sense from a realistic or immersion perspective, I'm thinking about it like this. Any form of space targeting is all about probabilities. There is no 100% exact targeting unless your weapon hits instantly regardless of distance, your sensors give instant information of enemy positions, that information is processed and coordinated with allied ships instantly, and is sent to your weapons instantly. In a situation where the enemy has, lets say, double the ships in the same arbitrary amount of space that you do, it could feasibly be faster for each of your weapons to target due to them having the possibility of calculating a solution that has high probabilities of hitting one out of several enemy ships. And if you say that the fire rate of a weapon is based significantly on the time it takes to acquire a firing solution, then it makes sense of a kind. Does it make perfect sense? No, but it's good enough for me.

As for how this update deals with doomstacks, I think it remains to be seen. If there is a system in place where you are unable to effectively use ships if you cannot pay for or supply them, then using small fleets to cripple enemy economy while bolstering yours could be an effective strategy to deal with a doomstack. And if starbases are a main way of gaining fleet capacity then going on a rampage capturing smaller, less important systems could very well create a situation where you force the other empire over fleet capacity and bankrupt them even if they have just doomstacked more important systems. The main idea I think is not to totally remove having one large fleet (Now likely composed of several smaller fleets following), but making it so that there are other viable strategies to fighting wars. If you opponent has one key choke point system with their entire fleet in it and a huge starbase to defend, of course you're going to have to bunch your whole fleet and send it in (Assuming you don't have jump drives). It would never work for them to create a situation where you can't shove your whole fleet in a system because it would be completely unrealistic given the actual size of a solar system. They're not really trying to make doomstacks worse just make other ways to fight viable as well. We'll see how well this strategy works, and it certainly might not be as effective as they want it too, but I'm excited to see what they come up with.
 
I was already really exited for Cherryh, and every Dev Diary that jas come out so far just increases my anticipation. Keep up the good work Wiz and Co.
 
I'm curious. What does a soft cap *add* that makes it better than having a hard cap? Right now, the soft cap is a trap for new players. When you look at fleet cap and comparing your fleet capacity to another you expect this to be similar to what your enemy fields.

Right now this is not the case and doing so will get you crushed by the enemy who went over his fleet cap because he invested so much into energy.

Hard cap allows a player to accurately predict the size of any fleet or total power an enemy can field. It allows players a chance to match said fleet by investing in tech and policies to increase their cap.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I was referring to the individual fleet caps mentioned in the DD, not your overall empire cap.

Hard individual fleet caps seem terrible to me. They force players to do something that the game doesn't otherwise incentivize them to do. If warfare was truly a fluid, strategic experience which rewarded the player who made the best, most creative use of his ships, then admirals would come into play naturally.

Adding rules to make players use a given mechanic is only necessary when the game hasn't made that mechanic necessary through play.

It's similar to the doomstack problem. Making small fleets more competitive in battle is good, but trying to solve the doomstack problem entirely that way is just another way of trying to force players out of a strategy. If players have other, equally viable, options, then doomstacks will start to lose wars and the strategy will become less relevant on its own.

I thought @Heretic Saint put it really well:

For the moment, I remain convinced that there is only one good way to counter doomstacks: do not target a fleet's efficiency, target an empire's ability to project its military might in the first place. The Pacific War lasted as long as it did not in the least because logistical challenges hampered the US Navy's deployment, allowing Japan to score a number of victories in spite of having a much smaller fleet. For example, the surviving battleships from Pearl Harbor retreated to the West Coast not just out of fear of Japanese airpower, but because Nimitz lacked tankers to keep them operational at the same time as his cruisers and carriers.
 
Hmm, Hive-minds and Robots running away? I understand it from a balance point of view, but at least for me that totally breaks immersion!
Consider: ships disengaging doesn't have to mean "running away"- its far more reasonable to look at it as, understandably, retreating to avoid destruction of assets. There's no reason a hivemind couldn't selectively withdraw assets from a battle to avoid the total loss of its appendages rather than senselessly throwing them all into a meat grinder- after all, a tactical withdrawal means they can use those drones again later to regroup and come back to fight again another day.
 
Yes, there isn't a limit on how many ships/fleets can be engaged in battle, just on how big any one fleet can be.

Wont the player just have multiple fleets instead of a big one, and the effect is simply the same as before?

I think you need to introduce attrition and a supply mechanic, so you can't have massive fleets in the same system unless you can support it.
 
I love these changes, it is exactly what was needed for combat. I do have a couple questions and ideas:

1: Will ground battles be reworked in this update? or will that come later?

2: For ships that have Monthly Hull Regeneration, will they re-engage if their HP goes up above 50%?

3: This is an idea, would it be possible to make a fleet cap bonus for your main navy? So, say I have 3 navies, the second and third navies would have a fleet cap of 30, but the first and main navy would have a fleet cap of 50. That way it gives the idea of one major, lead navy supported by several auxiliary navies.

And finally, 4: Could War Doctrines apply to separate navies rather than every navy? That way I could have a defense navy, a heavy hitting navy, and a skirmish navy. You could make the cooldowns for switching doctrines like changing policies, such as having a 10-year cooldown or so between switches.

Again, these changes are amazing, and thanks for your guys' hard work on making this game awesome!
 
Loving the change list, not 100% on the disconnect between gameplay/'real' world effect (the bonus to smaller fleet rather than a malus to a larger fleet), but I understand the logic behind your decisions, and better gameplay is good.
My only concern is that the Disengage mechanic might counter the intention of the small fleet bonus. So your small fleet is doing more damage to the enemy fleet, but they are now disengaging before they are destroyed, so you are actually only killing a few enemy ships, while damaging others. If you have multiple small fleets then this isn't necessarily bad, as your second fleet will be able to destroy/force-disengage the already weakened enemy ships quickly, however if you are going for a 'holding action' fleet while the rest of your forces push into enemy territory then you might end up not destroying many enemy ships, as their full hp ships will be at the front (if you go with the weakened ships move slower). Meanwhile they will wipe out your fleet, over the course of 3-4 battles.
This can be countered/fixed by adding additional modifiers to Disengage chance. For example total fleet losses might be a factor in disengage chance (after taking losses it makes sense that captains would be quicker to order their ships to retreat), or current battle balance (if you are losing then your captains would be quicker to leave, while if you are winning then they might want to push for the glory of victory rather than retreating in shame).

All in all I'm very excited to see Cherryh in action!
 
Consider: ships disengaging doesn't have to mean "running away"- its far more reasonable to look at it as, understandably, retreating to avoid destruction of assets. There's no reason a hivemind couldn't selectively withdraw assets from a battle to avoid the total loss of its appendages rather than senselessly throwing them all into a meat grinder- after all, a tactical withdrawal means they can use those drones again later to regroup and come back to fight again another day.
Yes, reasonable hivemind could do that. But Stellaris is a game of memes; do I need to remind anyone about "zerg" meme?
 
I'll ask again, what about 3-sided battles (everyone vs everyone), how FDCB will work in those?
It seems to be based upon their 2 sided wars. i.e. attackers vs defenders.
so if A attacks B,C,D the FD is determined by the difference between A and the total of B,C,D. if suddenly E declares war on A than the FD between them will be for only A Vs. E and ignores B,C,D.

"The Force Disparity Combat Bonus is applied when a smaller force is engaged with a larger one in battle ('force' being every ship engaged on one side of a battle, regardless of how many fleets and empires are involved on each side)"
 
What goes on in your head is of no concern to me... again... at the last big flood there were tens of thousands of Volunteers at work...
So yeah, with 50 Year old tech we could manage all of them quite nicely and without a hitch.
There is no logical or technological reason for such a Hard Cap especially one that is set so low.
Brother, I think you're conflating issuing basic directives to deal with the aftermath of emergency events with issuing specific tactical commands in the heat of a critical battle. I mean maybe you were issuing directives on where to damn the water flows? But even then it's not the same as dealing with sudden shifts in enemy positions controlled by another intelligent mind actively trying to out maneuver you. A river may suddenly shift the landscape, but it doesn't intentionally set traps, run feints, etc.
 
Yes, reasonable hivemind could do that. But Stellaris is a game of memes; do I need to remind anyone about "zerg" meme?
Stellaris Hiveminds aren't depicted as mindless, as a rule. You're free to RP yours that way- I'd assume that Gestalt Consciousnesses have all the Doctrine options available to them, in keeping with their design goal of giving the player "complete freedom"- but I don't see how its "immersion-breaking" that a hivemind can selectively retreat damaged ships from a battle.
 
Personally, I'd go with a bonus to evasion for the defensive fleet rather than fire rate, simulating the inferior fleet trying to avoid the larger fleet and the battle just being lower intensity overall, rather than giving the smaller fleet more of an opportunity to damage the larger one.
You could say that the smaller fleet is more motivated, plenty of historical (and fictional) examples of smaller armies being able to hold off or throw back enemy forces that outnumber them. Heck, it could be that the smaller fleet has better equipment and officers then the larger one.
 
Can we also get the option to choose weapons for strike craft? They won't be buildable, but would be accessible in the ship design menu with a weapon slot or two open. Then you choose a kinetic, energy, or missile weapon to use on them.

It's just sorta weird seeing a bunch of lasers from my strike craft when my fleet uses kinetics