Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations - Dev Diary 10: Balance Changes

[Freudia]

I'm just saying that if you have diplo-annex as it is now, with no cost,

This notion that current diplo-annexation is free just needs to go. You are spending 25 diplo points per core return, a diplomatic slot for over 10 years, and a diplomat during the annexation process. As is, the current system has plenty of cost. The problem is that coring currently is worse. The changes to coring are a step in the right direction, but the simultaneous nerf to diplo-annexation isn't balanced. 15*(Total Base Tax) winds up in these scenarios where it is just not feasible to justify having vassals whose base tax is over a value around 35 (Around 525 diplo points worth). Once you go past that you start hitting these massive numbers for prominent vassalization targets:

Guyenne: 40 base tax (600 points)
Styria: 50 base tax (750 points)
Ukraine: 54 base tax (810 points)
Byzantium: 71/77 base tax (Constantinople is either 9 base tax or 15 base tax) (1065/1155 points)
Mamluks: 80 base tax (1200 points)
Burgundy: 148 base tax (2145 points)

And this is just to annex the vassal! This isn't including all the various 25 diplo points you're adding just to return the cores to your vassals. You're giving up several tech levels to obtain, feed, and annex vassals now. There should be incentive to keep vassals around, but making it so annexing vassals is so expensive doesn't make me want to keep vassals around. It just makes me not want to have vassals, especially when vassal AI is currently only good for sieging.

 

[Chevaresqye]

I'm not saying it is. I've never done it. I'm just saying that if you have diplo-annex as it is now, with no cost, and increase the rate at which you can gobble territory directly with no coring time scaling, and with administrative efficiency, it will undoubtedly be easier than it is now. You are still at the mercy of rulers to a large extent either way.

Coring times is not really a obstacle for WC even now. After reaching a certain size when your ADM growth exceed your coring times, you just simply sell core to your vassal(s). So without diplo-annex cost, the administrative efficiency will make WC easier, but not that much. You simply gain more gold and Force limit due to holding the province directly. But to be honest, at the point you have have more ADM than you can core/tech/idea, you don't really need that extra gold and force limit.

 

[RadRussian]

Overall changes are good. Basically, we are now incentivezed to core less, to vassal feed less. I prefer to keep a smaller empire with adding buildings everywhere, culture converting, spending points on ideas. Quality vs quantity in one word.

Now you can rightfully call me a noob but in one of my recent Netherlands games starting as a Dutch minor, I conquered quite a lot of territory but still France's army was double mine and manpower was triple what I had. Because I was expanding into HRE, everybody hated me, and Austria would never answer my CTAs against them. 30 years after we divided Burgundy and France turned hostile, I was reduced to a small nation again, which is sad considering how powerful trade republics are in CK2.

Hopefully WoN will change it a little so you don't have to blob like crazy to ensure you survival.

Regarding the unit balance I'm not sure if it's necessary to to nerf non-Christian nations even further. It's not like we often see Algiers expand into Iberia or Kazan defeat Muscovy.
At the same time, Muscovy and Ottomans gain substantial boost. In my games I usually westernize and only then I have a chance against Ottomans and Russia, who has insane amount of cash and manpower. So now they will always be extremely powerful. What was the intention behind that?

 

[Calad]

Now I feel it was worth of it to purchase this game.

 

[rachini]

TL;DR "overall changes suck"

-Want to go back to The PRUSSIA issue: lowering its discipline to 7.5% will make the supposedly strong military nation 2.5% stronger than a "not so much militaristic oriented Nation" , solution:make it 10% AT LEAST.Cut me the "Prussia didn't become a nation of military might only till the 24th century" Crap.
-Lowering of number of pips:I want to make whoever that got the idea a FACE LIFT and some Nose Reconfiguration and probably some teeth reorganization.Technology is and should stay the major playing role in defining winner vs loser. Want an inspiration? look at what tech does in modern age countries , aka "now".
-Giving different tech groups a more "comparable" quality of units:This is sucks bad.The overall philosophy is that western had better equipped troops than other tech groups" , removing that is lame and should be avoided.
Note:WANT A BETTER IDEA PI ? :Make all countries 3 Province Miners, give them same tech,same bonus,same units and VOILA ! PROBLEMS SOLVED !!!!111one. KA$$HING!!$
-Annexation take DIP points:Cant Culture Shift so Effectively,Cant vassal feed so effectively...no more colonization for France and Bros.
-WHY call this game Europa Universalis 4?Better call it Democracy 3. WHY, you ask ? well , obviously there are more Kittens mentality developers devolving errr "developing" this game than Warmongers,real men.....

 

[rachini]

Now I feel it was worth of it to purchase this game.

you obviously don't play MP games were most of the advertised features are not working.AKA HJs.
but i can assure you that there are a multitude of features working:Lobby crashes,Desynchs,Crahses,More crashes,And some more crashes.

 

[PhoenixDown]

-Lowering of number of pips:I want to make whoever that got the idea a FACE LIFT and some Nose Reconfiguration and probably some teeth reorganization.Technology is and should stay the major playing role in defining winner vs loser. Want an inspiration? look at what tech does in modern age countries , aka "now".
-Giving different tech groups a more "comparable" quality of units:This is sucks bad.The overall philosophy is that western had better equipped troops than other tech groups" , removing that is lame and should be avoided.
Note:WANT A BETTER IDEA PI ? :Make all countries 3 Province Miners, give them same tech,same bonus,same units and VOILA ! PROBLEMS SOLVED !!!!111one. KA$$HING!!$

Non western nations will still be behind(excluding easterners and ottomans) in technology. They lowered neighbor bonus for tech too so catching up as non western nation will be much harder.

-Annexation take DIP points:Cant Culture Shift so Effectively,Cant vassal feed so effectively...no more colonization for France and Bros.

Yea that's interesting. They wanted to give some breathing space for late colonizers by slowing down early colonizers, but they effectively nefred late colonizers by that diplo annex cost.

 

[misterbean]

@ Rachini: Just because you (and I) don't agree with all their changes, there is no reason to get this aggressive.

 

[WeissRaben]

TL;DR "overall changes suck"

-Want to go back to The PRUSSIA issue: lowering its discipline to 7.5% will make the supposedly strong military nation 2.5% stronger than a "not so much militaristic oriented Nation" , solution:make it 10% AT LEAST.Cut me the "Prussia didn't become a nation of military might only till the 24th century" Crap.
-Lowering of number of pips:I want to make whoever that got the idea a FACE LIFT and some Nose Reconfiguration and probably some teeth reorganization.Technology is and should stay the major playing role in defining winner vs loser. Want an inspiration? look at what tech does in modern age countries , aka "now".
-Giving different tech groups a more "comparable" quality of units:This is sucks bad.The overall philosophy is that western had better equipped troops than other tech groups" , removing that is lame and should be avoided.
Note:WANT A BETTER IDEA PI ? :Make all countries 3 Province Miners, give them same tech,same bonus,same units and VOILA ! PROBLEMS SOLVED !!!!111one. KA$$HING!!$
-Annexation take DIP points:Cant Culture Shift so Effectively,Cant vassal feed so effectively...no more colonization for France and Bros.
-WHY call this game Europa Universalis 4?Better call it Democracy 3. WHY, you ask ? well , obviously there are more Kittens mentality developers devolving errr "developing" this game than Warmongers,real men.....

I can cut all the crap you want. Being ignorant about military history, apart from things written in overenthusiastic mandatory school years and heard as factoids from dubious sources, doesn't give you the right to ignore the fact that Prussia's prowess was tied to its rulers until the second half of the 19th century. Neither the right to ignore that non-Europeans bloodied the noses of Europeans until the late 19th century, as well. I have nothing against you holding the historical knowledge of a fifteen-years-old, but please don't slap your ignorance in our face like it is the absolute truth. Raben out.

 

[DominusNovus]

My understanding is that, in many cases, the militaries of non-European powers were just as well equipped as their European counterparts, but the Europeans' advantages in other areas, such as economics and logistics, were much more decisive.

 

[crusaderking]

My understanding is that, in many cases, the militaries of non-European powers were just as well equipped as their European counterparts, but the Europeans' advantages in other areas, such as economics and logistics, were much more decisive.

In a nutshell, you are mostly right. I wouldn't call it "advantages" though, since these same innovations also led to major exploitation of peoples across the world, the working classes in European societies themselves, highly destructive wars and a lot of environmental problems. They were advantages then because it helped European states achieve their goals. Looking back, I'm not too sure if we can continue calling them advantages.

 

[rachini]

@ Rachini: Just because you (and I) don't agree with all their changes, there is no reason to get this aggressive.

I like you bro , lets play a game.

 

[rachini]

I can cut all the crap you want. Being ignorant about military history, apart from things written in overenthusiastic mandatory school years and heard as factoids from dubious sources, doesn't give you the right to ignore the fact that Prussia's prowess was tied to its rulers until the second half of the 19th century. Neither the right to ignore that non-Europeans bloodied the noses of Europeans until the late 19th century, as well. I have nothing against you holding the historical knowledge of a fifteen-years-old, but please don't slap your ignorance in our face like it is the absolute truth. Raben out.

i like your face to my fist fighting style

 

[rachini]

Non western nations will still be behind(excluding easterners and ottomans) in technology. They lowered neighbor bonus for tech too so catching up as non western nation will be much harder.

you nailed it right ,having a border with western is less influential now, but making those changes is pretty lame i tell you.

Yea that's interesting. They wanted to give some breathing space for late colonizers by slowing down early colonizers, but they effectively nerfed late colonizers by that diplo annex cost.

Imagine the Ottos trying to feed Ukraine its owned provinces and then trying to annex it,just imagine.Now imagine them with DIP ideas , now put some sugar on top.

 

[Calad]

you obviously don't play MP games were most of the advertised features are not working.AKA HJs.
but i can assure you that there are a multitude of features working:Lobby crashes,Desynchs,Crahses,More crashes,And some more crashes.

Actually I did play with +10 people MP game but in early version battles were so ridicilous because there was no clear winner so we had to quit. Now you can lose in battles they are not so indecisive anymore. Nice also to see that game is continiously balanced. I hope they make China DLC as well.

 

[anubisfike]

This will maybe get buried or maybe it has even been asked already but I just wanna say let us modify the value for distant overseas provinces ourselves already. With that I mean let us alter the allowed distance in defines.

 

[Nassau]

What I dislike, and dislike in the game is that many nations have a very long term relationship. In reality nations that fought each other 10 years ago could now be the best of (strategic) allies.

 

[jrk264]

This notion that current diplo-annexation is free just needs to go. You are spending 25 diplo points per core return, a diplomatic slot for over 10 years, and a diplomat during the annexation process. As is, the current system has plenty of cost. The problem is that coring currently is worse.
...

QFT. Diplo-annexation was the one area of expansion that had costs that weren't measured only in MPs. Apparently Paradox is so confident that the MP system is a great idea that they decided it has to touch all areas of the game.

 

[lucaluca]

What I dislike, and dislike in the game is that many nations have a very long term relationship. In reality nations that fought each other 10 years ago could now be the best of (strategic) allies.

Some had a very long term relationships though... But I agree alliances were very short this new trust system scares me

 

[Konair0s]

What I dislike, and dislike in the game is that many nations have a very long term relationship. In reality nations that fought each other 10 years ago could now be the best of (strategic) allies.

Nah, I wouldn't like it in the game. I have feeling that AI suffered enough, let it stabilize with some mechanics.

Gameplay > History.