Factories explained

[unmerged(372515)]

It may be the artisans who are producing that good.

I know you invested a lot of time in this thread and we are all grateful, but you are wasting your time. The concept is bad, but worth exploring.

For everyone else, forget factories if you are not playing as some big ass civilized country (plus China) what is very, very dull, just mass as many brigades as you can and take on killing spree. Then you'll see money in the budget.

 

[diegoami]

I know you invested a lot of time in this thread and we are all grateful, but you are wasting your time. The concept is bad, but worth exploring.

For everyone else, forget factories if you are not playing as some big ass civilized country (plus China) what is very, very dull, just mass as many brigades as you can and take on killing spree. Then you'll see money in the budget.

Why, isn't playing Victoria 2 a big waste of time anyway ? It's not like we are being productive doing that, you know.
There are many ways to play a game, and I like to understand what's going on.

 

[unmerged(372515)]

Why, isn't playing Victoria 2 a big waste of time anyway ? It's not like we are being productive doing that, you know.
There are many ways to play a game, and I like to understand what's going on.

Sure, but you didn't make a conclusion on your invested research. The conclusion is that factories aren't implemented well. Did you read something about first industrial revolution? Size didn't matter. In the game, it's everything. Research doesn't mean anything as everyone researches everything. Even uncivilized country can make the same result as it can maintain conservatives by the end of the game thus avoiding socialists. Political reforms get's you in trouble, social reforms drains your budget. Again fault implementation. Wars with multiple GPs? Love it, they increase demand. Hate it, because it's not possible that army of 200 brigades can be rebuilt in 1 year without any effect on the budget/population/productivity... Colonization = reserved for 2-3 countries (GB + France, adding sometimes Spain or Russia). Economy in global = can you name me 3 mayor faults that have no head connection? Tarrifs, SOI, protectionizm! Should I continue?

 

[Forster]

I find this thread very interesting. I just started playing the game, and am enjoying some of what is going on. If you are so unhappy with the game, VZ02, you don't have to play. If you are not interested in threads such as this, don't read them. A lot of people are. This isn't meant to knock how you play, just a suggestion that you let the others enjoy how they want.

 

[unmerged(372515)]

I find this thread very interesting. I just started playing the game, and am enjoying some of what is going on. If you are so unhappy with the game, VZ02, you don't have to play. If you are not interested in threads such as this, don't read them. A lot of people are. This isn't meant to knock how you play, just a suggestion that you let the others enjoy how they want.

You got me wrong. I am not unhappy. I just dismantle the game like a toy to see how things work, to be more correct, what is not functioning and make a conclusion.

Of course you can pretend you are playing a country going for factories...playing France because you are from France. But in the end, and developers know that, there are just a groups of counties with 1 description/way of playing. Here for example, big civilized countries are one group, small civilized other group, uncivilized third group. With few exceptions like China and Japan. And only first group is playable to full potential. Everything else goes down the drain.

 

[Cymsdale]

This is wildly off topic.

 

[Christian D]

So in effect, a pop won't purchase from it's nation first when sphere but from it's common market, first from the country with the highest prestige/score?

Correct.

Could you elaborate a little bit? If this is the case, why is it that sphereing China ruins industries? Under that theory, shouldn't it be that your own goods get bought first by both the millions of Chinese and your domestic market?

 

[diegoami]

Could you elaborate a little bit? If this is the case, why is it that sphereing China ruins industries? Under that theory, shouldn't it be that your own goods get bought first by both the millions of Chinese and your domestic market?

That's a good point, and I am not sure how it works exactly. It's probably more complicated: the factories / artisans from the higher score / prestige countries may just sell a greater share of their output when there is oversupply. In my example as well all factories manage to sell some of their output, but Portugal's factories seem to sell more than Spain's (60% of their output vs 40%). That would also be closer to what happens in the real world.

 

[Phalanxia]

I know you invested a lot of time in this thread and we are all grateful, but you are wasting your time. The concept is bad, but worth exploring.

For everyone else, forget factories if you are not playing as some big ass civilized country (plus China) what is very, very dull, just mass as many brigades as you can and take on killing spree. Then you'll see money in the budget.

Industrialisation isn't dull at all - if anything is, it's going on an unimaginative and tired 'killing spree'. Achieving national success with minimal conquest through industrialisation and socio-economic development is elegant and the real test of skill in the game. Understanding how factories work is crucial to people with my play style, and whilst nobody thinks the Vicky system is perfect, it's certainly a far superior model of the industrial economy to any other game I can play.

Could you elaborate a little bit? If this is the case, why is it that sphereing China ruins industries? Under that theory, shouldn't it be that your own goods get bought first by both the millions of Chinese and your domestic market?

Perhaps it's more a problem with RGOs - if suddenly your markets are flooded with goods that were in previously low supply, RGO workers' wages will fall and they will have less income to spend on your manufactured goods? China is of course not rich enough to make up the shortfall, especially combined with the additional flood of artisans.

 

[pkderek]

I know you invested a lot of time in this thread and we are all grateful, but you are wasting your time. The concept is bad, but worth exploring.

For everyone else, forget factories if you are not playing as some big ass civilized country (plus China) what is very, very dull, just mass as many brigades as you can and take on killing spree. Then you'll see money in the budget.

How boring. There are much better games out there if you want to just conquer everything and not care. Why would you play this game to do that.

 

[Christian D]

Perhaps it's more a problem with RGOs - if suddenly your markets are flooded with goods that were in previously low supply, RGO workers' wages will fall and they will have less income to spend on your manufactured goods? China is of course not rich enough to make up the shortfall, especially combined with the additional flood of artisans.

Why would RGO workers' wages fall? It is my understanding that the price of goods is always the same no matter what, there is no different price worldwide or domestically. Is this not the case?

 

[unmerged(228779)]

Does it say that after a month has gone by?

Yes. I won't swear it was a month but it was at minimum several weeks. Is it possible something "resets" at the first of each month?

It may be the artisans who are producing that good.

In that case, it shouldn't say "Our Factory in Rheinland." Additionally, based on my observations artisans produce very small amounts of goods. I would take a lot of artisans to produce 34. Also, there is a separate listing for artisans below the factory.

 

[Cymsdale]

Why would RGO workers' wages fall? It is my understanding that the price of goods is always the same no matter what, there is no different price worldwide or domestically. Is this not the case?

The "sphering China destroys your economy" thing is something a lot of people seem to parrot without really understanding why it happens.

 

[Christian D]

Where does the money go when the factory budget is maxed? In a typical scenario like:

Pure income = +700
Market Spendings = -300
Paychecks = -50
Budget = +5000

Where is that extra 350 going?

 

[diegoami]

The "sphering China destroys your economy" thing is something a lot of people seem to parrot without really understanding why it happens.

Well, is it true that sphering China kills your industry ? I am not sure, but I tried starting as France. In 1836, France has a thriving paper industry, and after 20 days it is still in the green.

France NOT sphering China

If I start as China, after 20 days the paper artisans are also making a profit.

France sphering China


If I start as France, and then modify the save file to sphere Chinese countries, after 20 days my paper factory is in the red.

But the Chinese paper artisans are even worse off .

So if France spheres China, it may kill both France's factories and Chinese artisans. France and China both get a share of the common market. The effect on China is worse than on France, but also France's factories would be better off without having to compete with Chinese artisans.
But I have no idea what the formulas are, they may not even be deterministic.

 

[Christian D]

So if France spheres China, it may kill both France's factories and Chinese artisans. France and China both get a share of the common market. The effect on China is worse than on France, but also France's factories would be better off without having to compete with Chinese artisans.
But I have no idea what the formulas are, they may not even be deterministic.

Very strange. What happened to the RGOs producing the raw materials that go into the factories you were looking at?

 

[Christian D]

Well, is it true that sphering China kills your industry ? I am not sure, but I tried starting as France. In 1836, France has a thriving paper industry, and after 20 days it is still in the green.

France NOT sphering China

If I start as China, after 20 days the paper artisans are also making a profit.

France sphering China


If I start as France, and then modify the save file to sphere Chinese countries, after 20 days my paper factory is in the red.

But the Chinese paper artisans are even worse off .

So if France spheres China, it may kill both France's factories and Chinese artisans. France and China both get a share of the common market. The effect on China is worse than on France, but also France's factories would be better off without having to compete with Chinese artisans.
But I have no idea what the formulas are, they may not even be deterministic.

I thought it'd be worth it to note that I just sphered China after her substates rebelled and it seemed not to destroy my industries. I wonder if there's something with the way it calculates the resources coming from substates that messes it up.

 

[Orko80]

Could it be that it is connected to the market share total produced by your country?

Alot of speculation here.

This metric does decide how much of your product is sold on the market and how much is not sold. Combine this with how much resources the artisans get.
So your Factory production of paper in the world, get's the artisan's production of china added. Yor factory + Chinese artinans = alot of the world production -> more of your paper doesn't get sold.
Combined with you getting priority on the RGO output, cutting of the artisans and making them unaible to convert wood into paper. At the same time it doesn't reduce the total numer of possible paper production in your common market.
Resaulting in the % of not sold goods in your factory beeing alot higher than they should be based on their actual output.

Could be worth a look into the production screen what it says how much paper you produce.

But than again isn't that already broken down in seperate groups? Since there the artisans and craftmen are listed seperate.
Ah would need to look at the actual code, to get to the bottom of this. But i bet a huge part of it is, that the chinese artisans can't get their RGO input. But still it is a paradox situation. Shouldn't that increase demand on the world market and make your Factory more profitable?

Could be worth checking out a lower ranked country if their losses go down in that scenario.

 

[erthio]

Just to add a link to the thread where a dev explains a bit some of the HoD changes to salaries:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?693048-3.03-Craftsman-STILL-not-getting-paid

There are a bunch of rules for payout to keep factories from bankrupting. Reasons it might not pay salaries:
Its not been able to buy inputs for a whole 7 days. Otherwise it will pay a fraction of the salaries during that time. If it has very little money the fraction might be very small and be discared. Pops are free to stop being workers because they are poor, without this system those factories caught in this situation would have no chance of getting out of the situation

 

[Danny-Dynamita]

So, all the sphereing thing is a matter of SHARING (maybe with a bit of a random factor), not utter dominance, isn't it? The master has a bigger share, but that's all? If I understood it well, seems logic to me. Knowing this you don't even need to bother about the real formula behind all the process, just with some intuition and practice I think these situations of Sphereing = Bankruptcy could be avoided - being the ideal and safest case of all sphereing countries with totally different industry, so you establish a specialized common market (Sweden: Wood industry, you: Iron industry, and so on), benefiting both countries in the process.