• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Brian Bóruma

Ard-Rí na hÉireann
17 Badges
Feb 3, 2004
1.012
103
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
.60

That is the magic number. Half of Ireland has that base income. A few provinces have 1.2 base income, and one, Dublin, is lucky enough to have 1.8. Scotland and Wales have fared slightly better, but for especially Ireland it is only destiny to be raped by the English menace.

The amount of men you can raise is based on your income. The prestige hit for grabbing a claim is also effected by your income. I sincerely hope that someone will be willing to alter the situation in Britain, even slightly, to make it more reasonable.

If it's out of the question I won't bother making any suggestions, but Dublin could at the very least be bumped up to a level comparable to Gwynedd. Dublin, Wexford, Cork, and Galway should all be represented with somewhat respectable incomes. I'm not saying York, but not one level higher than Iceland.

Likewise, for Wales, Gwynedd has a nice income but the other provinces are godawful. Since they did fall under English rule, I can see having them somewhat weak, but Ireland never fell under complete English control until Elizabeth, or arguably Cromwell.
 
And here I was to suggest that Gwynedd's base income was too low also! Gwynedd didn't fall under English control until 1287 during the Edwardian Conquest. Yet, when I play Gwynedd as aggressive/hard or even agressive/normal, the English king always grabs titles to my lands and takes Gwynedd by the 1080's. Thus my new stratigy of pledging to France for some time.

mayhap Wales and Ireland both should be revewed for their base income, as part of the title grab from the English king is based on the income of your provance.
 
Remember that changing base incomes isn't that simple as it sounds, since the base incomes have to be comparable to each other across the board. And that base incomes are primarily representative of the actual wealth of the lands, not the amounts of troops one could raise in the region.
 
Hence why I only suggested for provinces in Ireland with large viking-built cities. While Tyrone is very important as the home of the O'Neills there simply was no major town/city in Tir Eoghain.

but Dublin, Laigin, Urmumu and Desmumu are a different story :)
 
Brian Bóruma said:
Hence why I only suggested for provinces in Ireland with large viking-built cities. While Tyrone is very important as the home of the O'Neills there simply was no major town/city in Tir Eoghain.

but Dublin, Laigin, Urmumu and Desmumu are a different story :)

Thay maybe large cities for Ireland but how large are they compared to cities in continental Europe ?

How much citizens did those towns have ?
 
I have to agree that some of those more important Irish provinces ought to have their base incomes brought up a bit. Nothing major, but a small boost would help.
 
Veldmaarschalk said:
Thay maybe large cities for Ireland but how large are they compared to cities in continental Europe ?

How much citizens did those towns have ?

In the 10th century, Dublin had a population of around 4-5,000.
Cork, and the other smaller towns were each around 2-3,000 depending on sources. That's not including surrounding towns and what we would now call metropolitan areas.

Since Ireland had no fortified towns aside from the ones the Vikings designed a few centuries before CK, some provinces should have very low incomes, but the current state is hardly bearable. Even a unified Ireland somehow has a lower income than a half-unified Wales.
 
I can't agree with those figures BB, if the likes of Cork had a permanent population of more than a few hundred at 1000 I'd be very surprised.

I made proposals for Britain starting here http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143895&page=2 and have modded a slightly altered version (lowering the value of Norfolk and Suffolk) into my version of CK.
 
Wikipedia said:
The medieval population of Cork was about 2000 people. It suffered a severe blow in 1349 when almost half the townspeople died of bubonic plague when the Black Death arrived in the town.

And, honestly, I think your "brilliant version" only feeds the English beast.
 
Brian Bóruma said:
And, honestly, I think your "brilliant version" only feeds the English beast.

Obviously that was ironic. And I think the proportions are correct even if the absolute values need down-tweaking. Overall it's only a modest gain for England.

It's not my fault CK treats wealth and manpower as being interchangeable.

Because medieval - whenever that means - Cork may have had a population of 2000 according to an unattributed statement on Wikipedia doesn't follow it had a population of several thousand as early as 1000. London may have had as few as 10k in 1066.
 
Last edited:
Remember that provinces are not about just cities, but also about the surrounding lands and the wealthiness of those lands. After all, most population lived on the countryside in CK era. Gwynedd is merely one point above Dublin in wealth, rest of Wales is poorer than Dublin. Also note that whole Scotland hasn't got any provinces that would be wealthier than Dublin.

You'd need to find some sources to support your claim that Ireland was more wealthy than it is now. That it took the English long time to conquer historically is not a very good argument, since CK simplifies out certain problems with Ireland, like the resistance by populace and it might have taken the English so long to take over completely simply because they realized that any conquests there are not worth the cost. :D
 
I understand your point, Byakhiam, and if you are taking into account the whole population of a provance, then I am sure I have some sorces that can attest to a greater man-power in Wales. The Welsh population was rather robust in the 11th century.

As it is now, it seems too much taken for granted that the King of England will always conqure Wales and Ireland too easily, and without much fuss. This wasn't the case historically.

There is no harder test then the one historically witnessed, and put in Crusader Kings speak, historically, "the difficulty level at very hard and very aggressive", yet Wales was able to hold off total conquest until 1287, a full 221 years after the 1066 start. And through-out that time there were points when the Princes of Gwynedd might have freed the whole of the country.

So, in my opinion, when the king of England totally vanquishes Wales and half of Ireland by 1100, there is something askewed in favor of the English king, as he wasnt able to do this historically, which is already the bench mark for difficulty, in my opinion.
 
I would myself pile this issue into the "MP = Income -> Bad Idea" complaint stack. Only way to address this is to make these areas more wealthy than they were historically. Also, remember that in CK conquest is always faster than historically, which shows up so clearly in for example Iberia too. So I am not very inclined to adjust the values for "more historical results", since I know the game engine is working against that here.
 
Byakhiam said:
I would myself pile this issue into the "MP = Income -> Bad Idea" complaint stack. Only way to address this is to make these areas more wealthy than they were historically. Also, remember that in CK conquest is always faster than historically, which shows up so clearly in for example Iberia too. So I am not very inclined to adjust the values for "more historical results", since I know the game engine is working against that here.
Well Iberia has another problem.
 
There needs to be some boosting to the manpower of certain Scottish provinces, particularly Moray and the western ones (Argyll, Carrick and the Western Isles). The latter provinces had huge manpower resources, enabling them to supply a large porportion of the Irish kings with their soldiers. Lothian, in contrast, rarely supplied much manpower at all, yet it is the biggest in the game. In the wars of independences, provinces Lothian and Berwick contributed virtually nothing, with all the manpower coming from Carrick, Argyll and Scotland-proper.
 
Like I said, we should not change base incomes to match manpower figures nor even a compromise there, since income affects other things too, like the general prosperity of the area and so on.
 
Byakhiam said:
Like I said, we should not change base incomes to match manpower figures nor even a compromise there, since income affects other things too, like the general prosperity of the area and so on.

Well, even here, there's little harm is giving Moray, Fife, Atholl and Mar a little boost, as all had large towns. Atholl contains Perth and Scone, the largest town and capital of Scotland respectively, as well as other large towns such as Dunkeld,

Fife had loads of towns (St Andrews, Dunfermline, etc), and Mar had the burgh of Aberdeen. Moray is particulaly important, containing the large towns of Inverness, Forres, Nairn and Elgin, and certainly should be wealthier than wastelands like Sutherland and Caithness; its tiny wealth and manpower means it can't take on Orkney on its own, as it should, and is easy for the Scottish king to subdue (which it wasn't). Carrick province would be like Tir Eoghain, and it is a shame neither it nor other great Gaelic sources of manpower like Argyll and the Western Isles can't get a mapower boost.
 
Yes, but you could start making arguments in favour of boosting the income of certain provinces in England along similar lines, and then you've gone full circle.

This may be controversial, but IMO, and in all honesty, the military conquest of Wales and Ireland by England was a foregone conclusion the moment any English monarch decided to undergo any such campaign. In open battle, or even several slightly-less-than-open battles, England would win - through manpower, materials, wealth, you name it. Even Scotland had a decidedly dubious run in holding onto its independence.

The more important issue was the difficulty in holding the lands and the actual desire to undergo the campaign. I could understand a 'Wales held out until xx date historically' if we were referring to constant war, but this wasn't the case. England spent a great deal of time fighting France and themselves in the time period. The key issue would be how long / how successfully Wales defended themselves once the war had begun. History tends to say 'not all that long, and not always all that well'.

In this aspect, CK isn't far from the historical situation. What isn't right is that England sees Wales and Ireland as nice, easy, convenient targets in 1066. Whilst they undoubtedly were, the AI is confident that it won't face a civil war or a terrible burden of debt, for example. I'm not sure English kings necessarily saw it the same way.
 
Woz Early said:
Yes, but you could start making arguments in favour of boosting the income of certain provinces in England along similar lines, and then you've gone full circle.

This may be controversial, but IMO, and in all honesty, the military conquest of Wales and Ireland by England was a foregone conclusion the moment any English monarch decided to undergo any such campaign. Not so, for many able English monarchs- both Anglo-Saxon and Norman- were to find out. The greater part of the 11th century the Welsh king Gruffydd ap Llywellyn actually had beaten back the Anglo-Saxons in open field warfare, and had taken parts of the West Midlands for a generation or two. The Angivine monarchy was unable to secure anything beyond Wallia Marchia, and even there the uplands were free of Norman influence. Wallia Pura would be devoid of any Norman influence until the Edwardian conquest- which all but backrupted the monarchy for a generation. He was unable to capitalize on his positions in Scotland because of the threat of Welsh revolts. Its no surprise that the English monarchy had to expend such huge amounts in their subjection of the Welsh. In open battle, or even several slightly-less-than-open battles, England would win - through manpower, materials, wealth, you name it. Even Scotland had a decidedly dubious run in holding onto its independence. This is a simplistic viewpoint of a complex issue. While it is very true that England was gaining more manpower and technology, it is also true the same trends were occuring in Scotland and Wales too. In Wales in particular, the population was on the rise in the 11th through 13th century, and that population increase was largest amongst the freeman element of the Welsh population, according to historian John Davies and others. There was nothing unduly unique that occured in England that did not also occur in Wales or Scotland too. IF the English were able to field more men, they had to contend greater generalship by Welsh leaders who were able to equalize surperior numbers with gorella warfare and better use of scarce resources. Politically, too, the Angivine monarchy was unanble to gather enough suport for their invasions of Wallia Pura, for the first three Henrys and king John attempted to subject the princes of Gwynedd and everytime was met with failure. The Welsh prince Llywellyn ap Gruffydd was even able to co-author porvisions in the Magna Carta.

The more important issue was the difficulty in holding the lands and the actual desire to undergo the campaign. I could understand a 'Wales held out until xx date historically' if we were referring to constant war, but this wasn't the case. There was a constant state of warfair between the Norman Marcher lords and the native Welsh. There are countless campaigns that were even funded by the Angivine monarchy that ended in failure. England spent a great deal of time fighting France and themselves in the time period. As did the Welsh and Scots, fighting and allying with others to secure a measure of automony from a centralized monarchy. The key issue would be how long / how successfully Wales defended themselves once the war had begun. History tends to say 'not all that long, and not always all that well'. War was 'declared' in 1071, when Bleddyn ap Cynfyn allied with Northumbria and Mercia against the Norman invasion. Open warfare between the native Welsh and norman Marcher Lords was a constant, and even the Norman monarchy had its teeth borken on its numerous Welsh campaigns. Dispite all the manpower and material at its desposal, its rather a testement to the resilience of the Welsh that they were able to hold off until 1287, and still the threat of the Welsh was real enough, as those great castles testify. It would take another 200 years or so to eleminate Welsh laws in the Statute of Ruddlan. Yet still in 1399 did a decendent of Welsh princes rise with Owian Glen Dwr, heir to the Dinefwr, Aberffraw, and Mathrafal houses. Owain almost secured a Welsh independence. Almost. Yet, do you not think that all these leaders did not know the numerical odds with which they fought, and yet felt the fight could be won?

In this aspect, CK isn't far from the historical situation. What isn't right is that England sees Wales and Ireland as nice, easy, convenient targets in 1066. Whilst they undoubtedly were, the AI is confident that it won't face a civil war or a terrible burden of debt, for example. I'm not sure English kings necessarily saw it the same way.


I disagree with your belief that English conqest of the British Isles was a foregone conclusion. It simply wasnt that easy for the English. My comments were mainly focused by Welsh historcial viewpoints. Though I am sure that the Irish and Scots would also take issue at any preceived notion of an English Manifest Destiny of the British Isles as well.

Since the game begins in 1066, its really a toss of the coin which people might claim overlordship over the other.
 
Last edited:
question: How is the ecomomic level of a provance determined? Is it based off of a value assigned to it by its historic economic preformance? Or an average of its historic ecomomic preformance over the periodes covered during the CK periode?