Italian names aren't quite right...

Spartanlemur · Feb 20, 2015

I don't wish to bring up the debate about classical "Latin" being around in the CK2 time-frame. Latin was dead by 769CE, and had been dead for many years, replaced by Vulgar Latin in the late empire.

But I recently decided to do some digging, as I found it odd that the names which are in the game files are so similar to those used in modern Italy. I found this website which cites historical sources for names, and the one which I have linked to below comes from a 13th century (1228CE) agreement to maintain an alliance signed by the Pisan people. They are sorted by frequency, and the name on the right side is a translation into modern Italian:

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/pisa/pisa-given-freq.html

To give the top ten, in original spelling: Buonacorsus, Guido, Ugolinus, Gherardus, Iacobus, Iohannes, Ranerius, Arrigus, Ildibrandus, Martinus.

Eight out of ten of these names (80%) have the ~us ending, while in the list of names in Crusader Kings II's Italian culture, only 13/400 (400 is an estimate) names (0.3%) contain that ending, which makes me feel that the current names are quite out of place in most of the game's timespan.
Here's another list, from the next few hundred years in nearby Florence:

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/tratte/

Top ten list: Giovanni, Francesco, Piero, Niccolo, Antonio, Iacopo, Bartolomeo, Bernardo, Filippo, Lorenzo.

The names are radically different. In fact, I could find not a single "us" ending for any name, which seems more similar to the Crusader Kings 2 list at present.

Here is a list from Imola (Northern Italy) in 1312:

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/imolamascalph.html

Top ten names: Johannes, Franciscus, Jacobus, Guido, Ugo, Dominicus, Pirundus, Barthollomeus, Tura, Petrus.

Here we see the same pattern as the first list, but the source notes that these may have been formal names, and not conversational versions.
Finally, here are the earliest names I could find, from the Norman kingdom in Southern Italy in the 12th century:

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/giano/normanitalian.html

So how do we interpret these?

Latinised names (not classical Latin, but Latinised Italian names) were used for formal purposes. This means that while your Italian king of Italy may have been called "Mario" by his sister, he would almost certainly have been called "Marius" on legal documentation, and addressed as such in a formal capacity.
"King Mario I" is like the reigning queen of England being called "Queen Lizzie II", which is where Crusader Kings 2 has its names incorrect. The exception to the rule appears to be liberal, bohemian Florence; so unless your ruler is Florentine, the names are not accurate.

So this is actually a suggestion to rework the Italian names list to include the more widespread, formalised versions of Medieval Italian names, which at present are too modern.
I may be wrong about this however, and if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested to know about it, so I can cease to be irritated every time I see an Italian noble with an anachronistic name.

Dolin · Feb 21, 2015

Might be true indeed.
Never really noticed to be honest.

Now I am going to mention the same deal with the names of the popes. All English variants of the latin names you have listed above should be removed in any case.

Pope Urban --> Urbanus, Pope Paul --> Paulus

That annoys me the most

Thure · Feb 21, 2015

Remember that many of this documents are wrote in Latin. The -us is not an argument.

You can even find German names with -us in german. This is just because the writen language is mostly Latin. We would have to use 'Frecerikus' or 'Carolus' for German too...

Or Vaclav/Wenceslaus was Venceslaus in official documents.

CSAGeneral · Feb 21, 2015

Exactly. Just because the names were written in their Latin version doesn't mean that's how they were spoken.

Thure · Feb 21, 2015

CSAGeneral said:
Exactly. Just because the names were written in their Latin version doesn't mean that's how they were spoken.

And if he want Latinised names for Italian... We would need the for German, Bohemian and English too. All of them used latinised forms in official documents... We would need Latinised names for all Catholic cultures.

Rubidium · Feb 21, 2015

Yes, and this was an issue well into the early modern period. For instance, James II of England (r. 1685-1688) was referred to in e.g. coinage as Jacobus II (or VII in Scotland), even though no one would really address him as "Jacobus."

Latin remained the official language of court documents for centuries after people stopped using it, so the names in documents are not going to reflect the actual names in usage.

JonStryker · Feb 21, 2015

There were Latin names in legal documents in Austria up until the 19th century. Priests used latinized given names. If a church record says "Joannes" you can be pretty sure that the person was known as Johann or Hans. Priests at times even translated surnames.
Seeing a Latin name on a document doesn't necessarily mean that anyone but the person who wrote it used that spelling.

Thure · Feb 21, 2015

JonStryker said:
There were Latin names in legal documents in Austria up until the 19th century. Priests used latinized given names. If a church record says "Joannes" you can be pretty sure that the person was known as Johann or Hans. Priests at times even translated surnames.
Seeing a Latin name on a document doesn't necessarily mean that anyone but the person who wrote it used that spelling.

Even in cities in northern Germany you can find latinised surnames in this era. There are Hamburgian testaments from people called 'Thitmarus de Ponte Molendinorum'. And this was 1321. Of course noone would call him this. We also have Wolderus Molendinorum or Hinricus de Wismaria who would be Hinrik van Wismar. Or Thidericus de Stadis who would be Dederik van Stade. And we don't want to see latinised name in the whole game.

Spartanlemur · Feb 21, 2015

CSAGeneral said:
Exactly. Just because the names were written in their Latin version doesn't mean that's how they were spoken.

I mentioned that at the top.

My main point is that the names in CK2 are official names of kings and queens. "Marinus" is how an Italian noble would have been addressed when on official business, with "Marino" reserved for informal relationships like friends and family.

JonStryker said:
There were Latin names in legal documents in Austria up until the 19th century. Priests used latinized given names. If a church record says "Joannes" you can be pretty sure that the person was known as Johann or Hans. Priests at times even translated surnames.
Seeing a Latin name on a document doesn't necessarily mean that anyone but the person who wrote it used that spelling.

But for things like tax records, and publicly signed agreements?

Thure said:
Even in cities in northern Germany you can find latinised surnames in this era. There are Hamburgian testaments from people called 'Thitmarus de Ponte Molendinorum'. And this was 1321. Of course noone would call him this. We also have Wolderus Molendinorum or Hinricus de Wismaria who would be Hinrik van Wismar. Or Thidericus de Stadis who would be Dederik van Stade. And we don't want to see latinised name in the whole game.

That is quite interesting.

The reason I believe it applies to Italian and not the rest of Europe, however, is a combination of two things.

Firstly, we have the direct lineage of the Italians to the Romans. I find it hard to believe that among the upper classes, the old customs would have died out entirely by 769AD, but this may be untrue. What I mean of course is what name would be used to speak of Italian nobles, so whether they would refer to each other with an "o" or an "us".

Evidence to support the coexistence theory here is that in the source, the endings are mixed (some names are "Niccolus", while others are "Niccolo"). This may just be laziness by whomever was writing them down, but it's possible that some people chose to give their names in different ways.

Secondly, it could be justified as an Italian flavour thing. I mean the Byzantine Empire is called such because historians refer to it accordingly. Meanwhile, almost all Italian nobles of the early Middle Ages (where most of us play) are spoken of in latinised names. This is not the case for nobles from other regions.

We're looking at regnal names, and there's something incredibly odd-looking about "King Mario". I imagine many CK2 players are put off playing Italians for this very reason (I know that I am).

Lysistrata · Feb 21, 2015

No, no Latinisation of names, please.

For one, it'd look utterly ridiculous if the bearer of the name wasn't either a Roman or a Catholic. That, and it'd make Europe blander. And I don't want that.

Also, Italy is one of my favorite places to play. I love the language, I love the names. I don't understand you being put off by "King Mario", but each to his own.

Titan79 · Feb 21, 2015

Dolin said:
Now I am going to mention the same deal with the names of the popes. All English variants of the latin names you have listed above should be removed in any case.

Pope Urban --> Urbanus, Pope Paul --> Paulus

That annoys me the most

This. So much this.

Remember: every time a pope called e.g. "Mark" shows up in anybody's CK2 game, a seal cub gets brutally clubbed to death.

(and the weirdest thing of all is that a reworked list with Latin pope names only has already been done - among some others, by me - so they'd just need to put it in. But it seems like it is a consistent thing to have both Latin and English papal names in the game at the same time...)

Ashagar · Feb 21, 2015

Judging by the names and histories I gather the only places still using Latin sounding naming was Rome, Venice and maybe Ravenna but I am unsure with the every greek influence there. many of the actual names in Venice and Rome in even the 7th, 8th century and 9th century wouldn't have been out of place in the late roman empire unsurprising considering those areas remained first under gothic rule who merely replaced themselves at the top but kept everything else the same even given the roman senate back some of it power it lost under the emperors then east roman rule.

A roman example of this would be Pope Gregory the second pope from, born Gregorius Sabellus his parents were roman nobles by the names of Marcellus and Honesta. You still see such names later in the 11th century and later but they are less common.

I suspect it might have to do with the fact that the Roman Nobility survived the fall of the western empire in Rome and manged to keep at least some power while Venice was founded by roman refugees who were later isolated by the Lombard Kingdom which forbid all trading with them.

DominusNovus · Feb 21, 2015

Personally, I find it more galling that the actual *Roman* characters in the game are Anglicized. There is no Constantinus, but Constantine.

aitaituo · Feb 21, 2015

spartanlemur said:
My main point is that the names in CK2 are official names of kings and queens. "Marinus" is how an Italian noble would have been addressed when on official business, with "Marino" reserved for informal relationships like friends and family.

Not really. Latin was the language of scholarship and (written) diplomacy. Kings were not typically even half fluent in Latin, much less having their vassals address them as Rex Henricus.

Also, in Italy vernacular Italian is poorly attested, meaning there are few written sources that have survived, prior to the 13th Century. Nonetheless, scholars are very confident that no one was speaking in Latin on a daily basis except priests and doctors.

Lysistrata said:
No, no Latinisation of names, please.

Hear, hear. I would love a Medieval Latin language option, though.

thevmag · Feb 21, 2015

Just think of there being translation microbes filtering the names into something palatable for modern audiences. As microbes, they're not too concerned with 100% period-accurate authenticity, but just that you can understand it at all.

KPJ · Feb 21, 2015

You'd love the Italian names from CK1.

Thure · Feb 21, 2015

spartanlemur said:
I mentioned that at the top.

My main point is that the names in CK2 are official names of kings and queens. "Marinus" is how an Italian noble would have been addressed when on official business, with "Marino" reserved for informal relationships like friends and family.

It was in Italy the same usage like in all other parts of (Catholic) Europe. Writen diplomacy and business was Latin. So every name was latinised. Even from Noth German rulers. And I'm sure in spoken diplomacy they would call him Marino if they spoke Italian. And Marinus if they spoke Latin. It's that easy.

spartanlemur said:
Firstly, we have the direct lineage of the Italians to the Romans. I find it hard to believe that among the upper classes, the old customs would have died out entirely by 769AD, but this may be untrue. What I mean of course is what name would be used to speak of Italian nobles, so whether they would refer to each other with an "o" or an "us".

But the nobility didn't had a direct linage. Remember that we have Lombardic influence too. Especially in the nobility in Northern and Southern Italy.

spartanlemur said:
Evidence to support the coexistence theory here is that in the source, the endings are mixed (some names are "Niccolus", while others are "Niccolo"). This may just be laziness by whomever was writing them down, but it's possible that some people chose to give their names in different ways.

Mostly the people don't choose how there name is writen in the source. And it's not laziness. There was no organised orthography in this time. It was the choice of the writter. Some fully Latinised the name. Others just use the name they hear and latinised it. There were different styles. This was the case in Germany too.

spartanlemur said:
Secondly, it could be justified as an Italian flavour thing. I mean the Byzantine Empire is called such because historians refer to it accordingly. Meanwhile, almost all Italian nobles of the early Middle Ages (where most of us play) are spoken of in latinised names. This is not the case for nobles from other regions.

We're looking at regnal names, and there's something incredibly odd-looking about "King Mario". I imagine many CK2 players are put off playing Italians for this very reason (I know that I am).

Which Italian nobles did you mean? Can you give some exemples of Italian nobles from 769-1454 with Latinised names? Again.... The most nobles in the 769 start date are Lombards (Or IRL romanised Lombards)

aitaituo said:
Not really. Latin was the language of scholarship and (written) diplomacy. Kings were not typically even half fluent in Latin, much less having their vassals address them as Rex Henricus.

Also, in Italy vernacular Italian is poorly attested, meaning there are few written sources that have survived, prior to the 13th Century. Nonetheless, scholars are very confident that no one was speaking in Latin on a daily basis except priests and doctors.

This eactly.

Ashagar · Feb 21, 2015

The only examples of surviving examples of Latin, more pointedly roman names I've found being in general use were all from early medieval Venice which was founded by roman refugees and who were isolated from other Italians by the fact the Lombard kings forbid all trading with them and most often in the duchy of Rome where the remains of the Roman Nobility still survived and was still producing people with roman names into the 8th and 9th century though I see less such names in the 10th and 11th so the old guard might have been dying off and being replaced by newer families by then.

A example would be Gregorius Sabellus who became Pope Gregory the Second in the early 8th century was born to Roman Nobles by the names of Marcellus and Honesta.

killerbee256 · Feb 21, 2015

Ashagar said:
... and most often in the duchy of Rome where the remains of the Roman Nobility still survived and was still producing people with roman names into the 8th and 9th century though I see less such names in the 10th and 11th so the old guard might have been dying off and being replaced by newer families by then.

Sounds like a good enough justification to give Rome roman culture in the earliest start dates.

Ezumiyr · Feb 21, 2015

spartanlemur said:
I don't wish to bring up the debate about classical "Latin" being around in the CK2 time-frame. Latin was dead by 769CE, and had been dead for many years, replaced by Vulgar Latin in the late empire.

You don't wish to bring up that debate but you still say something quite wrong... Latin has not been dead for long in 769, especially in Italia. And Vulgar Latin is the language spoken with the Romans in republican and imperial age. Late Latin is a more proper appellation.

Anyway, the names are an other matter. But still, the formalized latin names were not just there for the form. Latin was used in administration, in justice. It was the language of power in south France and Italia until very late (maybe 14th century). And also the language of erudition and religion.
So I agree that the names could be changed to something a lot more modern, but I feel this debate might end like the one about the Popes: someone will say that we can just mod it ourselves and someone from Paradox will say they won't change it...

Italian names aren't quite right...

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