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Path to Scandinavian Empire, Tribal or not?

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StarDolphin

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Feb 5, 2014
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My last game (Started before Charlemagne DLC), I played Sweden, Taking over all of Scandinavia, England, and Western Europe before I got bored.
I noted the two most annoying things with managing Scandinavia was
1) Culture Flipping, hard to keep a handle on it & change europe's culture.
2) Holding half of Sweden as your holdings was a good way of pissing off half the dukes in your central powerbase (they all desire the king title, and if you give it to them they want your holdings!).​

So I decided to try again for the following targets:
A) Form the empire before 950 to prevent culture flipping
B) Hold Denmark (a relatively small kingdom) as my personal fiefdom. If I hold an entire kingdom, they can't really complain can they?​

For this game, I decided to start out as Count Blek of Blekinge (A count in Denmark. I picked him because I was bored with the 30 different variations of the Norse Bird flag, the ship flag, or the ax flag. Blek gets a unique SNAKE flag). He did good, Taking over Skane, declaring independence, declaring war for Denmark, then dieing in battle. His son (one of two) finished off the war for Denmark and formed the kingdom.

So i'm now a 20 year old King of Denmark from the Blek Dynasty in 908 XD. I inherited a bunch of England, but had to spin it off because of all the penalties :(.

But apparently with Charlemagne Scandinavia now starts as tribes? Oh cool more challenge :p. I actually approve, because once I formed Scandinavia there wasn't anything Europe could really do to stop it, such a huge empire that is easily defendable.
I'm unsure which tactic to take this with. This is my first game playing as a tribe. So I'm asking for advice on which way to take this :). Particularly since I read if you upgrade out of tribal you get weaker.

As far as I can tell, I have two options:
1) Stay Tribal, Go take Scandinavia. Should be able to take Norway with Subjection, and my wife has a claim on Sweden. Use Prestige and gold earned by conquest to upgrade tribal holdings as much as possible in my future-personal-demise. I might have a shot at forming the empire before 950, if I push it. Upgrade out of Tribal once I fully upgrade Denmark. This should leave me powerful compared to all my remaining tribal vassals when I upgrade.
2) Upgrade out of Tribal before taking Scandinavia. Ignore tribal upgrades. I only need two more levels of Organization to get to max (should be able to have it by 917), and should be able to find money to get the buildings. Focus on building warchest (raiding) so I can buy buildings quickly after upgrade. I don't know if I'd then be in a position to take Scandinavia before 950 (On another note, anyone know if forming Norse Scandinavia after 950 will halt the culture flipping? Didn't seem to do so last game). I suspect if I upgrade (even if I can stash some money away) I'll be weak for a while...?​

In other news:
Blek has taken over Denmark! Defeated King Sigurdr Snake-in-the-eye gave us this exclusive quote: "Snake! Snake! Oh it's a snake"
 
Tribal changes occurred due to the patch (not specifically the Charlemagne DLC).

So even without Charlemagne, Scandinavia is now Tribal in the 867 start.

Tribal status is generally pretty annoying because you are constantly broke and you're stuck with Elective Gavelkind for a very long time.

Essentially, it takes around 20 years to up your Tribal Authority (increase it 4 times waiting 5 years in between), though that could be shorter if your ruler dies at an opportune time.

And then to go Feudal you need to either Reform or convert away from Paganism. Only then can you change your succession law and/or start the steady increase in Crown Authority....
 
Best to accept you are going to stay tribal for a while.
When you go feudal or republic any tribal vassals you have will have a -30 wrong government opinion modifier towards you and give you tiny amounts of levies.
Best to improve your vassals (especially direct vassals) to a point where they will convert with you.
Have a lot of money when you change over. Your new holdings start off with almost no troops and need time to build them up.
If you're king of Denmark try not to hold more than half of any other kingdom until you are ready to convert. With elective gavelkind the game may form other kingdoms if you hold enough land and give them to others in the line of succession. Even if you don't hold enough of another kingdom for it to form on succession you'll probably face vassals from outside your de jure lands trying to go independent.
 
Taking Scandanavia as Sigurdr is pretty easy- you can do it is one lifetime if you're lucky.

Set your ambition to Become King of Sweden. Subjugate the single counties, then move south to deal with the duchies..
When you become King of Sweden, Offer Vassalization to everyone in Norway. As long as they border you and don't hate you, they'll accept- they're the same culture and two ranks below you. (+5 power, at least +1 opinion, -2 base, -3 not de jure)
Use your once in a lifetime subjugation to subjugate Denmark
Take Finland with county conquests while you're doing all this.

The hard part is getting the money to create the title.
 
Studoku said:
The hard part is getting the money to create the title.
Click to expand...

I usually get some cash by sending a raiding party down to France and fighting whatever armies pop up until I can capture and ransom any landed nobles. Far as I can tell that's the only way to get any decent cash as a tribe.
Well, that and church vassals. I crank up my church tax to large since the few Goði (Goðir?) are unlikely to be powerful enough to revolt anyway. That won't give you much more money, but it adds up.
 
ColZimin said:
I usually get some cash by sending a raiding party down to France and fighting whatever armies pop up until I can capture and ransom any landed nobles. Far as I can tell that's the only way to get any decent cash as a tribe.
Well, that and church vassals. I crank up my church tax to large since the few Goði (Goðir?) are unlikely to be powerful enough to revolt anyway. That won't give you much more money, but it adds up.
Click to expand...

Last Game I took Corsica (as Sweden) and pretty much constantly raided the pope + Genoe. More money than any viking would know what to do with.

Studoku said:
Taking Scandanavia as Sigurdr is pretty easy- you can do it is one lifetime if you're lucky.

Set your ambition to Become King of Sweden. Subjugate the single counties, then move south to deal with the duchies..
When you become King of Sweden, Offer Vassalization to everyone in Norway. As long as they border you and don't hate you, they'll accept- they're the same culture and two ranks below you. (+5 power, at least +1 opinion, -2 base, -3 not de jure)
Use your once in a lifetime subjugation to subjugate Denmark
Take Finland with county conquests while you're doing all this.
Click to expand...

As I said in the thread, I'm not Sigurdr, I started as Count Bleik. I spent the first 50 years forging claims / independence / subjugating Denmark, and I'm now the king ;).

Empress Matilda said:
Best to accept you are going to stay tribal for a while.
When you go feudal or republic any tribal vassals you have will have a -30 wrong government opinion modifier towards you and give you tiny amounts of levies.
Best to improve your vassals (especially direct vassals) to a point where they will convert with you.
Have a lot of money when you change over. Your new holdings start off with almost no troops and need time to build them up.
If you're king of Denmark try not to hold more than half of any other kingdom until you are ready to convert. With elective gavelkind the game may form other kingdoms if you hold enough land and give them to others in the line of succession. Even if you don't hold enough of another kingdom for it to form on succession you'll probably face vassals from outside your de jure lands trying to go independent.
Click to expand...

Well I *have* no vassals now, which is why I was considering a quick change (Have 3 counts, one of whom is my childless brother and another is an infidel, easy to get both back). That was why I was considering quickly going over to Feudal.

But if I hop to Feudal, i'll be just a poor Feudal lord trying to invade tribal Scandinavia, instead of a relatively well to do tribal lord, so I do think going slow and taking Scandinavia first is the way to go.

Halcyan said:
Tribal changes occurred due to the patch (not specifically the Charlemagne DLC).

So even without Charlemagne, Scandinavia is now Tribal in the 867 start.

Tribal status is generally pretty annoying because you are constantly broke and you're stuck with Elective Gavelkind for a very long time.

Essentially, it takes around 20 years to up your Tribal Authority (increase it 4 times waiting 5 years in between), though that could be shorter if your ruler dies at an opportune time.

And then to go Feudal you need to either Reform or convert away from Paganism. Only then can you change your succession law and/or start the steady increase in Crown Authority....
Click to expand...

Yes I know, since I don't own the Charlemagne DLC ;)

This was a question of order. I can:
Take Scandinavia -> Reform Religion -> Go Feudal or
Go Feudal -> Take Scandinavia -> Reform Religion or
Take Scandinavia -> Go Feudal -> Reform Religion
 
StarDolphin said:
Last Game I took Corsica (as Sweden) and pretty much constantly raided the pope + Genoe. More money than any viking would know what to do with.



As I said in the thread, I'm not Sigurdr, I started as Count Bleik. I spent the first 50 years forging claims / independence / subjugating Denmark, and I'm now the king ;).



Well I *have* no vassals now, which is why I was considering a quick change (Have 3 counts, one of whom is my childless brother and another is an infidel, easy to get both back). That was why I was considering quickly going over to Feudal.

But if I hop to Feudal, i'll be just a poor Feudal lord trying to invade tribal Scandinavia, instead of a relatively well to do tribal lord, so I do think going slow and taking Scandinavia first is the way to go.



Yes I know, since I don't own the Charlemagne DLC ;)

This was a question of order. I can:
Take Scandinavia -> Reform Religion -> Go Feudal or
Go Feudal -> Take Scandinavia -> Reform Religion or
Take Scandinavia -> Go Feudal -> Reform Religion
Click to expand...

That last option is not possible. Reformed Religion is required to go Feudal, whether its a Reformed Pagan faith, or one of the "pre-reformed" monotheistic faiths.

Its sounding like the best option is the first, Empire -> Reform -> Feudalize.
From what I've been reading, going feudal is a dangerous transition period where you are quite weak for a good decade. You need to carefully prepare by making sure your holdings are heavily upgraded and that your direct vassals will go feudal with you when you make the jump.
 
Studoku said:
The hard part is getting the money to create the title.
Click to expand...

Just wait the the VIKING AGE event fires and go pillage the hell out of Venice. Seriously, pillage them until they cannot be pillaged anymore and then do it again for good measure.
The Duchy of Venice is separated from the mainland and is only one county during any start before 1066, (which is probably when you are doing this). This means that they cannot raise any troops due to not being able to see you coming. Just siege down their holdings and suddenly 100s of gold in profit.
 
I was able to form Scandinavia by 952 and go Feudal by 957.

My 2nd ruler lived forever. But I got very lucky when he died, his first son (who joined the Vanagarian Guard, Converted to Orthodox) got Norway but then died within a month, leaving it all to my second (godlike) son. A quick subjugation of Sweden and I had the empire.

Sadly, I'm still getting culture change events. I'm assuming its because i didn't form the empire by 950: The wiki says if you have a united empire you don't get the events, but maybe once they start firing they keep firing?

Also, I forgot that it takes a few generations before you can get off gavelkind once Feudal. This is gonna suck when my godking dies.
(My levies went from 10K to 5K on being pretty well built up).
 
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