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Chinese stuff and Vicky II in general

Never would have guessed such thing about Imperial China but well I'm just a poor barbarian :p (although we studied China from the movement of the 4th May to nowaydays in highschool)

About Vicky in general there are much flaws but once you play mods then much are not relevant anymore ;)
 
Yes, that is of course true - some emperors like Wu Zetian (she is referred to as emperor despite being a woman because the term 皇帝 is genderless in Classical Chinese, which is rather different from modern Chinese) had almost totalitarian control over their subjects, but in the Late Qing (i.e. before the game start), the office of emperor had been relegated to a mostly ceremonial and representative role (of course, some emperors tried to contest that), while power was concentrated in the hands of the various cliques trying to control him (to legitimize their rule).

That is probably going to be more or less what happens once I kill Xianfeng off. =P

I'm always happy to share knowledge! Granted, imperial China is not my area of expertise (I specialize in the labor movement of today's China - a very hot topic), but I have the minimum of knowledge about the era that is a necessity for Sinologists, so feel free to ask background questions if you have them. Traditional Japanese culture is basically Tang Dynasty Chinese culture, when China had its golden age of culture and poetry, which led to an enormous amount of what we today call soft power in its sphere of influence. When the Tang fell, Japan retreated back into its geographically facilitated isolationism, and preserved Tang culture into the modern age. The famous kimono is basically a normal Tang women's garment - of course, no Japanese person would ever admit that...

I see. ^^

My thinking exactly - I believe the focus on economics and politics as opposed to warfare is perfect for the era it tries to depict, it's just that the mechanics are REALLY poorly designed, and the game could have been so much more...
Take culture, for example: The game has cultures in Africa that I haven't even heard of before playing Vicky 2, but since there are no countries that have them as primary culture, they are identical to African Minor for gameplay purposes. On the other hand, they didn't include Welsh and Scottish, but conflated them to the nonsensical 'British' culture. See also the equally nonsensical 'Swiss' culture, the lack of Bretons, the lack of Australian, the lack of New Zealander and the way culture in colonies is handled in general.

As for the politics: Abolition of slavery is considered a political reform. Communists always try to repeal political reform (in the game - this is quite different from my understanding of real life communism), so Communism in Vicky 2 means reintroduction of slavery. Also, the election system: When a party with the Residency policy reigns in Germany, all of Bavaria is no longer allowed to vote because they are South German and not North German (this idiotic game design synergizes nicely with the above idiotic culture game design).

And for the economy: Even in a communist dictatorship, all land (RGOs) is owned and operated by aristocrats. And the clergy control the education system. WHY?

Yeah. =[ What really annoys me is that socialists oppose pro-union reforms????? Why??????????????????????? Hopefully Victoria 3 makes these things more realistic. XD

I also wanted to say a little about the imperial examinations: Contrary to popular belief, technical or scientific knowledge was not required. The questions were about morality, governance and philosophy. During the Ming and Qing dynasties, they were conducted in the form of the so called 八股文 or eight-legged essay (a literal translation, the character 股 refers to legbones, but means part of a larger form allegorically in this context). It was a highly formalized type of text, with an strict layout dividing the text in eight sections and rules about the length of the sections as well as the entire text. The candidates' work was graded according to their adherence to official moral values as well as their ability to quote and/or allude to the 四书五经 (four books and five classics, the main works of Confucian thought) and other classical texts/poetry - from this, we can see that the abilities to adhere to overly formal and stilted guidelines and to memorizes large volumes of ancient texts was far more important for a good grade than critical thinking or logic skills. In fact, the chosen texts from previous examinations were later reprinted as study guidelines and sold to aspiring officials for very good money, since a government post in the right place was worth a fortune!
In conclusion, the examination system was originally intended as a device to find the greatest talents for government work, but by the time the game takes place, it had definitely degraded into a means for the literate elite to exclude everyone else from the succession of power.

Just so you know, in my AAR, that old system has largely gone out the window. =P They're slowly transforming into what are basically college exit exams. XD Albeit ones for which you don't need to go to college to take.
 
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Just so you know, in my AAR, that old system has largely gone out the window. =P They're slowly transforming into what are basically college exit exams. XD Albeit ones for which you don't need to go to college to take.

Yes, that's the part that seems unrealistic to me - the examination system has been going on for hundreds of years and is a cornerstone of Confucian thought and morality, not to mention the way the entire current bureaucratic elite arrived at their posts. Even if the Emperor tried to change it, that would be like Barack Obama saying "You know, that Congress thing we've been doing since... well, since we're a country? I'm abolishing it." That would go equally well.
 
Yes, that's the part that seems unrealistic to me - the examination system has been going on for hundreds of years and is a cornerstone of Confucian thought and morality, not to mention the way the entire current bureaucratic elite arrived at their posts. Even if the Emperor tried to change it, that would be like Barack Obama saying "You know, that Congress thing we've been doing since... well, since we're a country? I'm abolishing it." That would go equally well.

Well, the Emperor didn't abolish it in the AAR, just carried out a series of reforms. And it didn't exactly go over well, if you recall the hundreds of thousands of reactionary rebels rising nationwide, as Socdemparty pointed out. XD

I certainly think this kind of rapid modernization on China's part would have been possible, if things had gone differently; after all, Emperor Guangxi nearly pulled it off, before Empress Dowager Cixi's coup. Japan itself went through a much more radical transformation in the same era.
 
Yeah, Heth here called it The Anarchy for a reason.
 
Well, the Emperor didn't abolish it in the AAR, just carried out a series of reforms. And it didn't exactly go over well, if you recall the hundreds of thousands of reactionary rebels rising nationwide, as Socdemparty pointed out. XD

I certainly think this kind of rapid modernization on China's part would have been possible, if things had gone differently; after all, Emperor Guangxi nearly pulled it off, before Empress Dowager Cixi's coup. Japan itself went through a much more radical transformation in the same era.

Yes and no - Japan's modernization was a reaction to the forced opening of trade routes, while the Chinese attempts at modernization only started after 50 years of being humiliated by foreign powers while still deluding themselves into thinking they had the one supreme system, and even then it still faced massive internal resistance from the literate elites in power (note that nearly all the great thinkers and intellectuals of that era, such as Liang Qichao, Kang Youwei and Lu Xun failed at their examinations - many educated people supported reform, but all of those who did, did so because the existing system had failed them).

Since your China has not experienced the historical setbacks and invasions, there is no reason to reform a system that is clearly producing results. It seems improbable. But is that the right question to ask? No. Is it possible? Yes, and therefore you did it that way. In conclusion: Sorry for being such a bother. :D
 
Yes and no - Japan's modernization was a reaction to the forced opening of trade routes, while the Chinese attempts at modernization only started after 50 years of being humiliated by foreign powers while still deluding themselves into thinking they had the one supreme system, and even then it still faced massive internal resistance from the literate elites in power (note that nearly all the great thinkers and intellectuals of that era, such as Liang Qichao, Kang Youwei and Lu Xun failed at their examinations - many educated people supported reform, but all of those who did, did so because the existing system had failed them).

Since your China has not experienced the historical setbacks and invasions, there is no reason to reform a system that is clearly producing results. It seems improbable. But is that the right question to ask? No. Is it possible? Yes, and therefore you did it that way. In conclusion: Sorry for being such a bother. :D

I don't know about Hethran, but I don't think you are a bother. You are contributing a lot to help this already awesome AAR be plausible.
 
Yes and no - Japan's modernization was a reaction to the forced opening of trade routes, while the Chinese attempts at modernization only started after 50 years of being humiliated by foreign powers while still deluding themselves into thinking they had the one supreme system, and even then it still faced massive internal resistance from the literate elites in power (note that nearly all the great thinkers and intellectuals of that era, such as Liang Qichao, Kang Youwei and Lu Xun failed at their examinations - many educated people supported reform, but all of those who did, did so because the existing system had failed them).

Since your China has not experienced the historical setbacks and invasions, there is no reason to reform a system that is clearly producing results. It seems improbable. But is that the right question to ask? No. Is it possible? Yes, and therefore you did it that way. In conclusion: Sorry for being such a bother. :D

Yeah, but doing an AAR of what was most likely to happen would be boring because that is in fact what happened. =P

This AAR is meant to turn all of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries completely on its head.

But no worries, you aren't being a bother. ^^
 
Ooh! I just had an idea for the narrative (if not for gameplay). So I was looking at the history of Vladivostok on Wikipedia (so you know I am hardly an expert on this in any way), and there was not a port there until the Russians decided to build one soon after seizing Primorsk. However there was a small village of illegal fishermen there before that. The area was called Hǎishēnwǎi, or "Sea Cucumber Cliffs."

Now, how plausible would it be for the Emperor to decide to build a port in that very location, hoping to make it one of the most prestigious ports in East Asia? In the process, he decides to rename it after the city that stood there during the Yuan Dynasty: Yǒngmíngchéng, "City of Eternal Light." Bit more fitting a name for a prestigious port than Sea Cucumber Cliffs, that's for sure.

Someone with better knowledge of this by all means tell me whether or not this is feasible.
 
Ooh! I just had an idea for the narrative (if not for gameplay). So I was looking at the history of Vladivostok on Wikipedia (so you know I am hardly an expert on this in any way), and there was not a port there until the Russians decided to build one soon after seizing Primorsk. However there was a small village of illegal fishermen there before that. The area was called Hǎishēnwǎi, or "Sea Cucumber Cliffs."

Now, how plausible would it be for the Emperor to decide to build a port in that very location, hoping to make it one of the most prestigious ports in East Asia? In the process, he decides to rename it after the city that stood there during the Yuan Dynasty: Yǒngmíngchéng, "City of Eternal Light." Bit more fitting a name for a prestigious port than Sea Cucumber Cliffs, that's for sure.

Someone with better knowledge of this by all means tell me whether or not this is feasible.

I like the idea but what purpose have this port ?
In OTL the Russians used Vladivostok as the end of the Transsiberian. Here it's just some coast :p
 
Ooh! I just had an idea for the narrative (if not for gameplay). So I was looking at the history of Vladivostok on Wikipedia (so you know I am hardly an expert on this in any way), and there was not a port there until the Russians decided to build one soon after seizing Primorsk. However there was a small village of illegal fishermen there before that. The area was called Hǎishēnwǎi, or "Sea Cucumber Cliffs."

Now, how plausible would it be for the Emperor to decide to build a port in that very location, hoping to make it one of the most prestigious ports in East Asia? In the process, he decides to rename it after the city that stood there during the Yuan Dynasty: Yǒngmíngchéng, "City of Eternal Light." Bit more fitting a name for a prestigious port than Sea Cucumber Cliffs, that's for sure.

Someone with better knowledge of this by all means tell me whether or not this is feasible.

Honestly I can't follow such a specific suggestion because I don't want to violate Paradox's rules saying you can't have an interactive AAR without getting permission first. XD So sorry, not going to happen. Thanks though!
 
Honestly I can't follow such a specific suggestion because I don't want to violate Paradox's rules saying you can't have an interactive AAR without getting permission first. XD So sorry, not going to happen. Thanks though!

Ah, didn't even know that was a rule. Ah well, no worries.
 
Honestly I can't follow such a specific suggestion because I don't want to violate Paradox's rules saying you can't have an interactive AAR without getting permission first. XD So sorry, not going to happen. Thanks though!

This should not violate the terms. An Interactive AAR, as far as I understand, has much of the gameplay being controlled by the forum. Just like in other AAR's where there are factions and elections and such. In short, players roleplay something and heavily influence the AAR.
Then there are mildly interactive AAR's where there are just some decisions by vote inside the AAR. This is a prime example of it. The Writer himselfs decides when (or whether) to allow votes, but takes the votes into consideration on how to proceed. The readers only control a small portion of the campaign.
But in this case, you would only follow an idea of a reader, without you having any obligation to follow such a proposal. So if you like the idea of such a Chinese port you can take it, if you don't like it you can refuse it. Following blitzthedragon's idea should not bring you in any conflict with the Interactive AAR rules. Take this for an example.
 
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This should not violate the terms. An Interactive AAR, as far as I understand, has much of the gameplay being controlled by the forum. Just like in other AAR's where there are factions and elections and such. In short, players roleplay something and heavily influence the AAR.
Then there are mildly interactive AAR's where there are just some decisions by vote inside the AAR. This is a prime example of it. The Writer himselfs decides when (or whether) to allow votes, but takes the votes into consideration on how to proceed. The readers only control a small portion of the campaign.
But in this case, you would only follow an idea of a reader, without you having any obligation to follow such a proposal. So if you like the idea of such a Chinese port you can take it, if you don't like it you can refuse it. Following blitzthedragon's idea should not bring you in any conflict with the Interactive AAR rules. Take this for an example.

This. Rules are rules but it doesn't conflict with them ;)
 
Yeah, the rules about interactivity only concern gameplay. Since adopting his suggestion would have no effect on gameplay whatsoever, it should be fine.

Regarding the suggestion itself - Vladivostok is only important to Russia because it is their only port on the Pacific that is ice-free all year, which gives them an enormous strategic advantage. That's why Tsarist Russia pushed for it so hard. China, on the other hand, has more than enough ports already, and the region has little to none natural resources (also, it's damn cold - Vladivostok is on the same latitude as Toronto or Marseille, but without the mediterranean climate to make it pleasant). The only possible reason for China to develop this vast and REALLY sparsely populated frontier area (mind you, in real history, Russia was able to colonize the area - over 900.000 square kilometers - for years before even being noticed, that's how empty it was) is to counter Russian designs on the territory be establishing towns and military bases.
 
I agree with the above. But to be sure, pm a mod and ask. :) it costs nothing.
 
Vladivostok is only important to Russia because it is their only port on the Pacific that is ice-free all year, which gives them an enormous strategic advantage. That's why Tsarist Russia pushed for it so hard. China, on the other hand, has more than enough ports already, and the region has little to none natural resources (also, it's damn cold - Vladivostok is on the same latitude as Toronto or Marseille, but without the mediterranean climate to make it pleasant). The only possible reason for China to develop this vast and REALLY sparsely populated frontier area (mind you, in real history, Russia was able to colonize the area - over 900.000 square kilometers - for years before even being noticed, that's how empty it was) is to counter Russian designs on the territory be establishing towns and military bases.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
 
Part 38: The Scramble for Africa

The Chinese would play little war in the war between Baden and Austria - quite simply, China still lacked sufficient power projection capability for an expedition to Austria. All that really came of it was a total embargo of Austria by China, which resulted in some minor economic difficulties for Austria, but mainly just made it harder for the Austrian aristocracy to get their hands on luxury clothes.



Instead, China focused its efforts on preparing for war with Britain. The Emperor approved a massive expansion of the Qing armed forces, with the goal of nearly doubling the New Model Army in size; necessary to counter the massive sepoy armies the British had recruited from India. He also continued expanding the navy, to support Chinese forces in Africa.



Nevertheless, Baden quickly fell, leaving Austria to fight the war alone.



On the diplomatic front, the Emperor signed an alliance with Johore, in which it officially guaranteed Johoran independence against British expansionism. (unofficially the Chinese knew Johore's tacit support would make operations against British Singapore easier)

Meanwhile in Africa, Chinese diplomacy had been hard at work forming tributary relations with the various tribes and nations of Africa. The Europeans grew increasingly concerned as they rapidly lost trade to China. Finally, Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Sardinia-Piedmont met secretly and decided to partition Africa between them, before China could. With Machine Guns, they assumed they could easily do what their ancestors had failed to do, and colonize the entire African interior.



Unfortunately for these plans, they were too late. China was leagues ahead of the Europeans in imposing its hegemony over Africa, and catching wind of European expansion in West Africa, Qing swiftly dispatched agents to rapidly expand into Africa's interior.



From bases in the Niger Delta, East Africa, and the Horn of Africa, Chinese soldiers and diplomats rapidly moved to negotiate with or cajole the local Chinese tributaries to sign protectorate agreements with China, and to assist Chinese tributaries in conquering those other African tribes and nations who had refused to join the tributary network. With the diplomatic ground already laid out beforehand, the Chinese advance was unstoppably fast.



However, with tension between Britain and China having been rising for months, the sudden British expansion in Africa provided the perfect pretext for the Emperor to finally publish a formal decree of war against the British Empire.

The Emperor included a list of grievances in his declaration:
1. The British and Britain's Indian subjects have cruelly oppressed the peoples of Burma, treating them as nothing more than subhuman labor to be exploited. Thus, in her capacity as Empress of India (and by extension Burma), Queen Victoria had clearly violated the Confucian covenants of just governance between ruler and ruled, and as leader of the civilized world it was the Xianfeng Emperor's duty to liberate the Burmese people.
2. Chinese nationals in Britain and other parts of the British Empire had been cruelly mistreated under racist British laws that privileged whites at the expense of all others. Even members of the Chinese embassy staff in London had reportedly been harassed on several occasions. China had a duty to protect its citizens.
3. The British had engaged in unlawful aggression against the peoples of western Africa, expanding in a brutal fashion aided by machine guns. Again, as leader of the civilized world, it was the Emperor's duty to punish such barbaric aggression and protect the peoples of Africa.
4. The British had used their control of Heligoland to threaten German trade, violating their own supposed commitment to free trade, and thus China had an obligation to protect its tributary. (this may or may not be blatantly false propaganda. =P )
5. The British had consistently insulted China on the international stage, looking down on China in a humiliating fashion and refusing to give China its due respect as the leader of the civilized world.





Chinese diplomats had manage to persuade both the Germans and Turks to join the war, with Germany eager to secure its control of the Kiel canal; while Belgium and the Netherlands joined the war in support of Britain.

And so began the First Sinocentric War.

(edit: And hiatus is over, obviously. XD)
 
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