American natives developing firearms, cavalry and cannons way too early.

greendevil · Oct 31, 2014

Playing as the Inca, I was able to get cavalry and cannons way before even getting in contact with europeans :blink:

And it's not only me, but other AI countries as well.

That isn't just ahistorical, that's simply absurd and impossible.

uishax · Oct 31, 2014

Don't they still have that 150% tech cost? How is it any different from pre AOW?

Crusaderking28 · Oct 31, 2014

It's the same in 1.7.3. Finishing a Sweden game and when I arrive in the America's, there are 3 N. American Tribes with Lvl. 10 tech in 1510. They aren't protectorates, or westernized. 30 years later, one of them has westernized and now has Lvl. 13 tech. Strange.

unmerged(652342) · Oct 31, 2014

Sometimes i miss good old "white man" modificator from EU2...

WeissRaben · Oct 31, 2014

Cannons and guns should probably be enabled by European contact - there just is not way they would have developed them independently before 1500 (maybe they would have, left alone, but not that soon).

Tufto · Oct 31, 2014

WeissRaben said:
Cannons and guns should probably be enabled by European contact - there just is not way they would have developed them independently before 1500 (maybe they would have, left alone, but not that soon).

IIRC, there aren't any natural iron supplies in the region, which was a major setback on their ability to develop more advanced tech. Plus, no horses in the Americas...

WeissRaben · Oct 31, 2014

Tufto said:
IIRC, there aren't any natural iron supplies in the region, which was a major setback on their ability to develop more advanced tech. Plus, no horses in the Americas...

Bronze cannons, while they did become outdated later on, are doable, and the natives did have bronze. What they didn't have is a better knowledge of metalworking (making something that doesn't explode is /hard/), plus obviously gunpowder. And yes, making them more than siege/defensive weapons requires horses or - at the very least - oxen, or moving them is going to be hell.

blackchoas · Oct 31, 2014

Before you met them or before any Europeans met any American?

You do realize that people trade stuff even in America, its also not like some Spanish guy walked up to the Apachi and gave them horses, once Europeans reach the continent with a few decades they had already left there mark even in places they hadn't been

unmerged(652342) · Oct 31, 2014

blackchoas said:
Before you met them or before any Europeans met any American?

You do realize that people trade stuff even in America, its also not like some Spanish guy walked up to the Apachi and gave them horses, once Europeans reach the continent with a few decades they had already left there mark even in places they hadn't been

- trade with knowledge of metal working/gunpowder making/horse breeding? You do realize that actual knowledge of those will not help to produce guns or training cavalry men because native people would lack scientific and production base for complex developments like that, north american indians did not produced their own guns they bought from europeans and they did not breed horses because... you know american horses died out long before that.

Azhcristokos · Oct 31, 2014

I've only ever seen the natives get up that high in tech when they reform their governments, because you jump up close to your western neighbor's tech levels when you reform, even before you westernize. So then you have to wait for them to get far enough ahead in tech so that you can actually start the westernization process. Still, it makes playing a native more survivable.

Haccoude · Oct 31, 2014

RussianBias said:
- trade with knowledge of metal working/gunpowder making/horse breeding? You do realize that actual knowledge of those will not help to produce guns or training cavalry men because native people would lack scientific and production base for complex developments like that, north american indians did not produced their own guns they bought from europeans and they did not breed horses because... you know american horses died out long before that.

Native Americans simply tamed wild horse from the herds of them that descended from horses the Spanish brought. They didn't buy horses.

Jezbob · Oct 31, 2014

Typical.

unmerged(652342) · Oct 31, 2014

Haccoude said:
Native Americans simply tamed wild horse from the herds of them that descended from horses the Spanish brought. They didn't buy horses.

- i did not said that american natives bought horses, i said that they bought guns and that here were no horses in america in before european arrival, you know to tame wild horse that descended from european horses they should arrive at new continent first.

Haldan · Oct 31, 2014

Problem, Colonists?

unmerged(652342) · Oct 31, 2014

Haldan said:
Problem, Colonists?

- it was forbidden for spanish colonists to trade horses to natives.

Christopholes · Oct 31, 2014

Llama cavalry :laugh:

Mister X · Oct 31, 2014

They need a new tech tree

AurochsAway · Oct 31, 2014

Christopholes said:
Llama cavalry :laugh:

No, llama artillery.

Tacticus101 · Oct 31, 2014

You got to tech 7 from 1, with a +150% tech cost before you met any Europeans? That's impressive.

Crusaderking28 said:
It's the same in 1.7.3. Finishing a Sweden game and when I arrive in the America's, there are 3 N. American Tribes with Lvl. 10 tech in 1510. They aren't protectorates, or westernized. 30 years later, one of them has westernized and now has Lvl. 13 tech. Strange.

Maybe they reformed?

FlyingOnion · Oct 31, 2014

AurochsAway said:
No, llama artillery.

My gods... Paradox needs to get in on this for the next unit pack.

American natives developing firearms, cavalry and cannons way too early.

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