Historical Soviet Build: Can it be done in time for Barbarossa?

I have the Land OOB somewhere, but it may take some digging to find it.

198 Rifle divisions (3 INF), 61 Armor divisions (2 ARM/LARM+MOT), 31 Motorized divisions (3 MOT), 20 paratrooper brigades, 13 cavalry divisions (2 CAV+AC), 74 artillery regiments, 15559 combat planes (20662 total).
6 Rifle divisions were formed from armies of the Baltic countries in 1940.

I have 186 inf (3 inf/art), 48 gar (3 gar?AA?art?), 60 arm (2 arm/mot/Mot.art.), 29 mech (Larm/3mot), 4 mot (3 mot/Mot.Art.), 12 cav (2 cav/AC), 15 mtn (4 mtn), 5 para (3 para), and a whole bunch of NKVD (Mil?????) for a total of 360 divs

Air force: 34 int, 12 tac, 2 cas, 8 transport, 3 strat, 3 nav.

I think navy: 2 BB, 6 DD, 3 CL, 7 SS, but you can find that in the naval thread in more detail anyway.

edit: I used Niehorster's Orbat.

With ART, I used data for artillery of Stavka Reserve - 60 howitzer and 14 gun regiments. Could be argued either way. Also, some of the Rifle divisions should be MTN.
Pre-war artillery in a Rifle divisions consisted of: 38 76-mm guns, 12 122-mm howitzers, 12 152-mm howitzers, 18 45-mm AT guns. Is it enough to be called an ART brigade?
NKVD were used for rear patrols - so GAR/MP in game terms.
~400 KVs, 1400 T-34s, and lots of BT series.

Should be Basic training. Don't forget, that the compulsory military service was introduced only in Sep 1939, thus until then you can use Volunteer Army, and 2-year draft afterwards.

So does vanilla have enough IC and MP to build 360 divisions? Has anyone actually done it?

Secret Master said:

Are those INF divisions just 3xINF?

And when you say "a lot of NKVD," are we looking at 100 NKVD divisions?

It seems to me that NKVD formations might be closer to GAR/MP, but then we have to address the inevitable RART they should have.

Also, I can't build 4xCAV/AC divisions until I unlock superior firepower, so those are going to have to be done as brigades.

EDIT: I didn't pay attention to Opanashc's post. My bad, he clearly says 3xINF.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that 4 cav division was a typo. I think that Opanashc has it right there.

As for the NKVD, I checked and they are listed as regiments. I think about 80 or so single Mil regiments would be plenty. They are the Soviet Double Command units.

edit: Niehorster specifically lists rifle divisions as 3inf+1art.

jju_57 said:

So does vanilla have enough IC and MP to build 360 divisions? Has anyone actually done it?

Click to expand...

I sure haven't. On the good side, you start with about 100 divisions already. Only about 260 to go:laugh:

Here's a thought. The Soviet divisions were traditionally smaller than the rest of Europe. How could we simulate that? Turn the rifle divisions into binary divs with an art attached?

Maybe this link would help as well, for comparisons with Niehorster: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/941RFCC.pdf

This document covers: Soviet Army and Air Forces
22 June 1941
Does not include: Naval Surface and Air Forces, NKVD Internal Troops, Border Troops

Olfert Fischer said:

Maybe this link would help as well, for comparisons with Niehorster: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/941RFCC.pdf

This document covers: Soviet Army and Air Forces
22 June 1941
Does not include: Naval Surface and Air Forces, NKVD Internal Troops, Border Troops

Click to expand...

Very nice find!!

Does this help at all? http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/941RXAA.pdf

Organization of a Russian Rifle Division
Based on German Intelligence
1941
Division Headquarters:
3 Infantry Regiments, each with:
3 Battalions, each with:
1 Signals Platoon
3 Rifle Companies (9 LMGs, 2 HMGs, 3 82mm mortars)
1 Support Company (12 HMGs, & 2 82mm mortars)
Support Units:
1 Horse Drawn Supply Column
1 Mortar Company (4-107mm mortars0
1 Gun Battery (4-76.2mm guns)
1 (mot) Anti-Tank Battery (6-45mm AT guns)
1 (mot) Anti-Aircraft Section (3 12.7mm AA HMGs)
1 Engineer Company
1 Signals Company
1 (mot) Reconnaissance Company
1 Chemical Warfare Company
Reconnaissance Batalion
1 (mot) Administration Platoon
1 (mot) Pioneer Bridging Detachment
1 (mot) Signals Platoon
1 Armored Car Company
1 (mot) Gun Battery (4.76.2mm guns)
1 Cavarly Squadron
1 (mot) Rifle Company
Field Artillery Regiment:
Staff Battery
(mot) AA Machine Gun Detachment (3 quad 12.7mm HMGs)
2 Battalions, each with:
Signal Platoon
Calibration Platoon
2 Batteries (4-76.2mm guns)
1 Battery (4-122mm guns)
1 (mot) Flak Battery (37mm guns)
1 Ammunition Train
1 Battalion
Signal Platoon
Calibration Platoon
1 Battery (4-76.2mm guns)
2 Batteries (4-122mm guns)
1 (mot) Flak Battery (37mm guns)
1 Ammunition Train
1 Veterinary Hospital
1 Field Smith
1 Baggage Troop
Howitzer Regiment:
Staff Battery
(mot) AA Machine Gun Detachment (3 quad 12.7mm HMGs)
1 Battalion
Signal Platoon
Calibration Platoon
13 Batteries (4-122mm howitzers)
1 Ammunition Train
1 Battalion
Signal Platoon
Calibration Platoon
1 Batteries (4-152mm howitzers)
1 Ammunition Train
1 Veterinary Hospital
1 Field Smith
1 Baggage Troop
Signals Battalion:
1 Staff Signals Company
1 Radio Company
2 Telephone Companies
1 Aircraft Liaision Detachment
Engineer Battalion
3 Engineer Companies
1 Technical Engineer Company
1 mixed mobility Supply Column
1 (mot) Bridging Train
Anti-Tank Battalion:
3 (mot) AT Batteries (6-45mm AT guns ea)
Anti-Aircraft Company:
12 (mot) Quad 12.7mm Anti-aircraft HMGs
Tank Battalion:
22 T-26 tanks
16 T-37 tanks
Support Troops:
Divisional Transportation Battalion
Ordnance Work Shop
Quartermaster Work Shop
Blacksmith Shop
Automobile Workshop
Handcraft Workshop
Baggage Company
Field Bakery
Field Butcher Shop
Field Post Office
Divisional Printing Office
Veterinary Hospital
Ambulance Company
Divisional Field Hospital
Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, national Archives Microcopy No.
T-78, American Historical Association Committee for the Study of War Documents,
Washington, DC., 1960
Copyright GFN 1992.

Or even better this, with numbers of men: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/941RFXA.pdf

Organization of a Russian Rifle Division
29 July 1941
Division Headquarters: (26/49/14/37) 1
2 heavy trucks, 4 light trucks, 6 wagons, 24 horses
3 Infantry Regiments, each with: (107/51/365/2,172)
3 Battalions, each with
1 Signal Platoon
3 Rifle Companies (6 LMGs & 2 50mm mortars)
1 Machine Gun Company (12 HMGs)
1 Mortar Company (2 82mm MOrtars)
Signal Company:
AA Company: (3 quad 12.7mm AA HMGs & 6 37mm guns)
Pioneer Company:
AT Battery: (6-45mm guns)
Infantry Gun Battery: (4-76.2mm guns)
Mortar Company: (2-120mm mortars)
Medical Company:
Horse Drawn Supply Company
total equipment:
54 SMGs, 6 AT rifles, 54 LMGs, 36 HMGs, 3 12.7mm AA HMGs, 18
50mm mortars, 6 82mm mortars, 2 120mm mortars, 4 76.2mm
infantry guns, 6 45mm AT guns, 9 light trucks, 9 bicycles,
154 wagons, 27 carts, 14 field kitchens, 477 trucks
Horse drawn Artillery Regiment: (57/36/141/729)
Signal Platoon
Staff Battery
3 Battalions
Signal Platoon
Calibration Section
2 Batteries (4-76.2mm guns)
1 Battery (4-122mm guns)
total equipment
16 76.2mm guns, 8 122mm howitzers, 4 light trucks, 1 special
vehicle, 85 wagons, 26 carts, 7 field kitchens, 723 horses.
(mot) Flak Battalion: (16/13/42/172)
2 Flak Batteries (3-37mm AA guns ea)
1 Flak Battery (4-76.2mm AA guns)
total equipment
6 37mm AA guns, 4 76.2mm AA guns, 1 heavy truck, 27 light
trucks, 2 special vehicles, 5 tractors, 1 field kitchen.
(mot) Reconnaissance Company: (4/1/15/101)
9 light trucks
(mot) Signals Battalion: (17/15/47/184)
1 heavy truck, 15 light trucks, 3 special vehicles, 3 motorcycles,
1 wagon, 13 carts, 1 field kitchen, 27 horses
Pioneer Battalion: (17/14/70/316)
43 wagons, 4 carts, 3 field kitchens, 102 horses
(mot) Flamethrower Platoon (1/0/4/33)
30 flame throwers, 3 light trucks
1
Numbers are officers, officials, NCOs, and men.
1Transportation Company: (4/8/24/83)
80 light trucks, 1 special vehicle, 1 motorcycle, 1 field kitchen
Medical Battalion: (2/31/32/165)
20 special vehicles, 50 wagons, 1 field kitchen, 104 horses
Field Bakery: (0/4/12/144)
18 light trucks, bakery ovens, 20 wagons, 1 field kitchen,
and 45 horses
Veterinary Hospital: (0/1/1/8)
2 wagons, 4 horses
Field Post Office: (0/3/3/6)
4 wagons & 8 horses
Paymaster: (0/3/0/0)
Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, national Archives Microcopy No.
T-78, Roll 486 , American Historical Association Committee for the Study of War
Documents, Washington, DC., 1960
Copyright GFN 1992.

Comparing Olferd's numbers to what I have in my head for the Germans, I'd say they had less cannons, but they were higher calibre.

God, what I wouldn't give to be able to do try this stuff with HOI IV's division template!

In 1941, German Infantry division was supposed to have ~16.5k men, Soviet Rifle division ~14.5k men, mostly due to support unit differential. Not that much different.
German INF division had 74 guns and 75 AT guns. It also had almost twice the number of mortars of a Soviet Rifle division.

And about NKVD regiments/divisions:

Russian NKVD Divisions
1939-1945
Note:
This listing was developed from German intelligence summaries.
Dates indicated as when the divisions were formed are, in fact, the date the
Germans first learned of the division's existence.
1st NKVD Division (became 46th Rifle Div in Sep 42)
1st NKVD Infantry Regiment
2nd NKVD Infantry Regiment
3rd NKVD Infantry Regiment
1st NKVD Division (reformed by May 43)
3rd (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
92nd NKVD Infantry Regiment
169th NKVD Infantry Regiment
308th NKVD Infantry Regiment
1st (mot) NKVD Division
organization unknown, dates unknown
2nd (mot) NKVD Division (formed by Jan 42)
7th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
9th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
20th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
4th NKVD Division (formed by Sep 41, disbanded Jul 42)
6th NKVD Infantry Regiment
16th NKVD Infantry Regiment
18th NKVD Infantry Regiment
5th NKVD Division (formed by Nov 41)
10th NKVD Infantry Regiment
137th NKVD Infantry Regiment
138th NKVD Infantry Regiment
140th NKVD Infantry Regiment
260th NKVD Infantry Regiment
261st NKVD Infantry Regiment
6th NKVD Division (dates unknown)
135th NKVD Infantry Regiment
136th NKVD Infantry Regiment
139th NKVD Infantry Regiment
145th NKVD Infantry Regiment
262nd NKVD Infantry Regiment
297th NKVD Infantry Regiment
7th (mot) NKVD Division (date formed unknown, reformed Apr 42)
12th NKVD Infantry Regiment
32nd (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
34th NKVD Infantry Regiment
143rd NKVD Infantry Regiment
264th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
265th NKVD Infantry Regiment
8th (mot) NKVD Division (formed by Jan 42)
4th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
41st NKVD Infantry Regiment
89th NKVD Infantry Regiment
266th NKVD Infantry Regiment
1267th NKVD Infantry Regiment
289th NKVD Infantry Regiment
9th NKVD Division (dates unknown)
237th NKVD Infantry Regiment
283rd NKVD Infantry Regiment
9th (mot) NKVD Infantry Division: (formed Jan 42,
disbanded Sep 42)
19th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
21st (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
30th (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
33rd (mot) NKVD Infantry Regiment
267th NKVD Infantry Regiment
10th NKVD Division (formed by Sep 42, became 181st Rifle
Div in Feb 43)
11th NKVD Infantry Division: (formed by Jan 42)
26th NKVD Infantry Regiment
275th NKVD Infantry Regiment
276th NKVD Infantry Regiment
277th NKVD Infantry Regiment
278th NKVD Infantry Regiment
279th (?) NKVD Infantry Regiment
12th NKVD Division (dates unknown)
280th NKVD Infantry Regiment
283rd NKVD Infantry Regiment
284th NKVD Infantry Regiment
285th NKVD Infantry Regiment
334th NKVD Infantry Regiment
17th NKVD Division
organization unknown
19th NKVD Division
organization unknown
20th NKVD Division (formed pre-war, became 92nd Rifle Div
in Sep 42)
7th NKVD Infantry Regiment
8th NKVD Infantry Regiment
9th NKVD Infantry Regiment
21st (Security) Infantry Division (Formed by Aug 41, became
109th Rifle Div in Aug 42, organization unknown)
23rd NKVD Infantry Division:
51st NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
52nd NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
53rd NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
82nd NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
87th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
110th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
115th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
152nd NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
25th NKVD Division
organization unknown, railroad division
26th NKVD Division
56th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
90th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
151st NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
29th NKVD Division
268th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
30th NKVD Infantry Division:
116th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
119th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
31st NKVD Infantry Division:
64th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
91st NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
32nd NKVD Infantry Division:
62nd NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
117th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
154th NKVD Railroad Infantry Regiment
33rd, 34th 35th NKVD Infantry Divisions:
(organizations and dates unknown)
41st NKVD Division (formed by April 42)
266th NKVD Infantry Regiment
267th NKVD Infantry Regiment
268th NKVD Infantry Regiment
273rd NKVD Infantry Regiment
274th NKVD Infantry Regiment
Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, National Archives Microcopy
No. T-7811, Roll 459, American Historical Association Committee for the Study of
War Documents, Washington, DC., 1960
Copyright GFN 1992.
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