Germanic cultures in Latin countries in Charlemagne

e736874 · Sep 2, 2014

We learned in the stream that France would be in 769 of Frankish culture, and Iberia of Visigoth culture, and then later change to local Latin cultures. But in reality, that was not what happened. The people remained Latin from the Roman empire time to the Middle Ages time, without a Germanic parenthesis during the Early Middle Ages due to the great invasions. The Germanic barbarians invaded the empire, and led the different provinces, but were never numerous enough to change the language and culture of local people (except in Alsace-Lorraine). With time, the Germanic Lords thus adopted the local Latin cultures of their lands.

In France for instance, in 769 the culture should be Gallo-Roman (from the Latin culture group), and turn after a while into French. The lords in France in 769 should be Frankish (from the Germanic culture group), with only a few Gallo-Romans counts, and after a while turn into French.

That would be far more realistic. The people of France and Spain were never Germanic, only the lords were, for a few centuries.

Me_ · Sep 2, 2014

Good luck. The cultures in CK2 are very abstract, so I don't expect any more changes to be made, but good luck, nonetheless.

Thure · Sep 2, 2014

I still hope Visigoths are Romance people... Aurelius shouldn't be Germanic (not even his name and the names of his family hint to it).

Ezumiyr · Sep 2, 2014

e736874 said:
We learned in the stream that France would be in 769 of Frankish culture, and Iberia of Visigoth culture, and then later change to local Latin cultures. But in reality, that was not what happened. The people remained Latin from the Roman empire time to the Middle Ages time, without a Germanic parenthesis during the Early Middle Ages due to the great invasions. The Germanic barbarians invaded the empire, and led the different provinces, but were never numerous enough to change the language and culture of local people (except in Alsace-Lorraine). With time, the Germanic Lords thus adopted the local Latin cultures of their lands.

In France for instance, in 769 the culture should be Gallo-Roman (from the Latin culture group), and turn after a while into French. The lords in France in 769 should be Frankish (from the Germanic culture group), with only a few Gallo-Romans counts, and after a while turn into French.

That would be far more realistic. The people of France and Spain were never Germanic, only the lords were, for a few centuries.

While I agree that cultures of France and Spain should not be germanic (they've never been germanic), we cannot call "Gallo-Roman" the people that lived in France in 769. They are... well... of a lot of different Roman sub-cultures. Except in Breizh. But they are still more frankish than gallo-roman...

No idea · Sep 2, 2014

Well, cultures in ck 2 have never been an "exact science", but i agree it would make far more sense for those countries to be of roman-gallic or roman-iberian culture more than germanic. Of course there should be a chance to mutate cultures, just as anglosaxon culture can mutate into something new.

kemerover · Sep 2, 2014

People in France just should be French and people in Aquitaine just should be Aquitain. Frankish culture should be West Germanic and they later should convert to French culture as it happens with any other ruler-conquer. All this melting pots are useless. The only point of English melting pot is just changing name and getting rid of petty kings.

klopkr · Sep 2, 2014

kemerover said:
People in France just should be French and people in Aquitaine just should be Aquitain. Frankish culture should be West Germanic and they later should convert to French culture as it happens with any other ruler-conquer. All this melting pots are useless. The only point of English melting pot is just changing name and getting rid of petty kings.

Yeah because the french were french before the franks right?

NewbieOne · Sep 2, 2014

Rome only changed the culture in those provinces because of the longevity of its rule. The people remained whatever they'd been genetically, and the whole Romance thing is basically language and customs etc. The genetic make-up of Europe may well have changed only very little since the ice age.

But yeah, the majority of the populace very likely was Romance throughout with only some of the elites still being Germanic but not all.

However, the assimilation worked in both directions — Roman senatorial families in some cases also left their Roman-style country villas and joined the Frankish elite.

Ruwaard · Sep 2, 2014

e736874 said:
We learned in the stream that France would be in 769 of Frankish culture, and Iberia of Visigoth culture, and then later change to local Latin cultures. But in reality, that was not what happened. The people remained Latin from the Roman empire time to the Middle Ages time, without a Germanic parenthesis during the Early Middle Ages due to the great invasions. The Germanic barbarians invaded the empire, and led the different provinces, but were never numerous enough to change the language and culture of local people (except in Alsace-Lorraine). With time, the Germanic Lords thus adopted the local Latin cultures of their lands.

In France for instance, in 769 the culture should be Gallo-Roman (from the Latin culture group), and turn after a while into French. The lords in France in 769 should be Frankish (from the Germanic culture group), with only a few Gallo-Romans counts, and after a while turn into French.

That would be far more realistic. The people of France and Spain were never Germanic, only the lords were, for a few centuries.

Not just in Alsace (settled by Alemanni) and Lorraine (settled by Franks), if one limits it to France, then there also is Flanders (in this case French Flanders) (settled by Franks), it's no coincidence that the Dutch speaking region of Belgium is called Flanders (formally Flemish Region). OTOH the population in these border regions might already have been mixed Celtic and Germanic.

So parts of northern and north-eastern France or perhaps more appropriately for this era Gaul, should have Frankish culture, together with neighbouring regions in Belgium, the southern Netherlands and western Germany (Rhineland, Palatinate, Franconia etc.) (which roughly corresponds with Austrasia).

You're right about most of the lords though. Eventually those Germanic lords, which ruled over a Romance populace ended up adopting the Romance tongue of their subjects. Whereas their relatives, which ruled over a Germanic people kept a Germanic language.
However culture is broader than language alone; and regardless of language they still remained the elite.

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Germanic cultures in Latin countries in Charlemagne

e736874

Sergeant

Me_

Myself

Thure

Chartularius Hamburgensis

Ezumiyr

Field Marshal

No idea

Field Marshal

kemerover

Second Lieutenant

klopkr

Chief suggester at the suggestion factory

NewbieOne

Field Marshal

Ruwaard

Imperial Vicar of the HRE