Playing the Allies I have experienced the following: Amphibious assault on Caen and airdrop nextdoor on LeHavre. When I transport troops to LeHavre they land with almost no combat effectiveness. But when assault troops take Caen, they still have most of their combat value in tact. Since they all started at the same level, why the loss of comabt effectiveness of the transported troops when they land?
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noone quite knows. I assume that troops getting transported for an attack are combat ready and equipped, ready to fight, whereas transported troops need time to reorganize themselves before moving forward. You cant launch amphibious assault on a taken beach.
I think Eugenioso has pretty much nailed it. If you think about it, the mechanics of sea transporting a force are very different to those for staging an amphibious assault. Weapons and equipment are stowed remote from the troops who'll eventually be requiring them, combat support services (e.g. medical and logistic) are deactivated for the period of the transport, unit integrity isn't so rigidly enforced, and of course no provision is made for combat landing in fighting formation. In effect, the unit has to be largely 'regenerated' once it comes ashore.
I do think the loss of effectiveness might be a little too pronounced, but it seems to me that the logic behind it is sound.
I do think the loss of effectiveness might be a little too pronounced, but it seems to me that the logic behind it is sound.
What there needs to be is more (ORG, time to land troops on beach, visibility to opposing ships/planes) penalty to the navy for launching an amphibious operation vs sea transport. The prep for D-Day was a massive undertaking, the landing ships couldn't just turn around and assault Pas-De-Calais the next day if Omaha was a little too tough. Meanwhile, the Cunard liners had no problem turning around 15,000 troops per ship from US->UK week after week. You could see how amphib techs might ameliorate this drain or improve transport morale, etc.
I'd go further still and make major invasions, involving anything over a division say, either subject to costly Decisions (like a junior Offensive) or available as separate one-shot weapons builds (like nukes) that are consumed on use.
If amphibious assault means better preparation, then it should cost as much supply as offensive. While I agree transporting could make people a little disorganized, it does not justify losing half the org. It is not like they all slept on ship deck suffering sea sickness, and need a week to recover. The org loss should be no more than 10%.
How about we lessen the penalty but make it universal, so that all divisions landing from transports take a -50% hit to their current ORG? It would at least make the system a whole lot more intuitive.
Guys,
Thanks for your commiseration. It's definitely something that should be ironed out for HoI4, since I do feel that the penalty is far too severe.
Thanks for your commiseration. It's definitely something that should be ironed out for HoI4, since I do feel that the penalty is far too severe.
The loss of org is almost total when troops are transported (and not ~50% as I read it)
There is a logic to have a huge loss of org when it happens. Before the invasion of Iraq, US troops had been circling for weeks in the Mediterranean during the negotiation with Turkey about using the country as a base for the attack. It dragged on and failed at the end. The point is that it would have been too disruptive to the org of the units onboard to unload somewhere then reload (we got this info first hand during the debriefing at the USMC exercise)
Now, I agree that the loss of org is too high considering that the units transported has 1-to survive 2-won't recover its org fast enough (and infrastructure will have been damaged). But this was done to fix a bigger issue and an exploit, i.e. when a player will use a PAR to capture an empty harbor then will transport 10-20 divisions few hours later with their full org.
A trick to simulate a first wave of reinforcements with full capacity is to launch a second invasion on the same province with the reinforcements few hours before the defeat of the defenders; that way, they won't lose their org when they will reach the province.
By the way, this has nothing to do with HOI4
There is a logic to have a huge loss of org when it happens. Before the invasion of Iraq, US troops had been circling for weeks in the Mediterranean during the negotiation with Turkey about using the country as a base for the attack. It dragged on and failed at the end. The point is that it would have been too disruptive to the org of the units onboard to unload somewhere then reload (we got this info first hand during the debriefing at the USMC exercise)
Now, I agree that the loss of org is too high considering that the units transported has 1-to survive 2-won't recover its org fast enough (and infrastructure will have been damaged). But this was done to fix a bigger issue and an exploit, i.e. when a player will use a PAR to capture an empty harbor then will transport 10-20 divisions few hours later with their full org.
A trick to simulate a first wave of reinforcements with full capacity is to launch a second invasion on the same province with the reinforcements few hours before the defeat of the defenders; that way, they won't lose their org when they will reach the province.
By the way, this has nothing to do with HOI4
I found a gamey exploit as Italy. I will sent out the best fleet I got with a transport fleet. I will amph. Assault all French African beaches. No org loss in their horrible infra, no worry of counter attack. Soon French navy will have no where to go in mediterrainean sea.
Unfortunately, because of the way naval supply is handled, it won't make a blind bit of difference to them.
Ok guys, sorry for the necro. This issue is so annoying it ruined my game as US. If I send troops to Africa, they will be in no shape fighting. Infrastructure is so bad once I get there I cannot resupply. Any way to mod this out?
Edit: Ok, I modded the misc.txt file and set the transport org loss to 30%. The original DH value is 80%, the old HOI value was 50%. I assume DH did this to prevent gamey exploits. I would say adding extreme, unrealistic punishment to the player just to prevent a simple tactic is a bit too much.
Edit: Ok, I modded the misc.txt file and set the transport org loss to 30%. The original DH value is 80%, the old HOI value was 50%. I assume DH did this to prevent gamey exploits. I would say adding extreme, unrealistic punishment to the player just to prevent a simple tactic is a bit too much.
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Following up on the necro. I understand the explained logic for the org loss, but isnt it extremely gamey to amph assault empty provinces with your units and receive no org penalty alike normal troop transport?
Is this what you changed?:
# ORG modifier for land units after naval transportation. [ORG = ORG * THIS]
0.2 #0.5
If so, did you change 0.2 to 0.7 to make the loss 30%? I'm new to this sort of stuff.
Yes. Now things make much more sense, I could now actually start my African Campaign.
OK, thanks. I think I'll go for 50%. I agree with you about the gamey tactics. I'd rather avoid using them but have a more realistic org loss.
Nice, enjoy your new game. I still find it funny when my troops fights better after been slaughtered by MG in DDay, than a nice safe trip to Africa.