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Can a noble still be a Doge?

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H.A.J.T.

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Heya Crusaders,

I've never played as a Republic before and don't really know how things work.

I was just wonder if, say, as a Doge, it's possible to marry into nobility through a dowry and have heirs who possess noble titles (like a county) and whether said heirs would still be eligible as doges?

Or, because commoners have to marry nobles matrilineally, is it impossible to have a noble relative who remains playable (Even so, could that relative continue to take part in the Republic's politics?)?
 
There's exceptions to everything in a Paradox game, especially with the weirdness of titles in CK2, but generally speaking, no (if he already holds an equal level title). It's probably also likely even if they have a lower level title.

From what I understand it's all about holdings. If you set your kid up as a city ruler, then as a duke, etc., you can transform your realm into a Republic if you do it right.
 
Thanks - Is that the only way to play as a family in a republic that is already of nobility (and hence, doesn't have to marry nobles matrilineally?)

I mean it seems like it must be possible? I see on the Wiki's interesting characters guide that Gerardo I Visconti of Pisa can claim the de jure territories of a dukedom?

Does that mean that he's a noble? Or, if you come into possession of De Jure territories that allow the creation of a title, can you 'enoble' yourself?
 
H.A.J.T. said:
Thanks - Is that the only way to play as a family in a republic that is already of nobility (and hence, doesn't have to marry nobles matrilineally?)

I mean it seems like it must be possible? I see on the Wiki's interesting characters guide that Gerardo I Visconti of Pisa can claim the de jure territories of a dukedom?

Does that mean that he's a noble? Or, if you come into possession of De Jure territories that allow the creation of a title, can you 'enoble' yourself?
Click to expand...

You can hold a ducal-level title as a doge or even as a patrician. Hell, if you were in an emperor-level republic, you should be able to create a kingdom too. Doesn't require anything special -- you can usurp or create titles like anyone else (just can't be of equal rank to your liege, the Doge, if you are a patrician). What's not normal is INHERITING titles into the family. Nobles are not eligible for becoming patrician/doge. Claims, on the other hand... I'm not sure because I never played around with it much, but I thought you could inherit claims.

By the way, holding a ducal title as a patrician doesn't make you a feudal noble. It just makes you a high-ranking patrician, holding the title of the land.
 
H.A.J.T. said:
Thanks - Is that the only way to play as a family in a republic that is already of nobility (and hence, doesn't have to marry nobles matrilineally?)

I mean it seems like it must be possible? I see on the Wiki's interesting characters guide that Gerardo I Visconti of Pisa can claim the de jure territories of a dukedom?

Does that mean that he's a noble? Or, if you come into possession of De Jure territories that allow the creation of a title, can you 'enoble' yourself?
Click to expand...

By nobles, do you mean LANDED ones? Because you should be able to marry the same people you normally would according to the tier of your title and your prestige, you just have to pay for it, as a Republic. I'm really not sure where you're getting this matrilineal stuff from.
 
Well any of the merchant republics you start as noble family but you are considered low class for diplomacy. If you were a feudal lord gaming to become a republic you will already be a noble. As far as I know it is impossible to play lowborn normally. If you select one on the map a random dynasty will be generated for you. I assume if a npc lowborn gets a duke title he will automatically get a dynasty but I'm not sure about count level.

All your family members will still be "lesser" nobles and can become what ever. I think they start as no class (fuedal/religion/trade) and will be able to inherit your titles and become republic. If you give them a castle or temple/church they will become that class and may not be able to inherit your republic. Females can't inherit republics because it's a male only club. So it will be a good Idea to leave at least one male unlanded or in charge of a city of any rank. If for some reason all of your family members die in a mass murdering spree if you have a castle fuedal lord family member you will play as them but you will lose your republic class and title and probably lose bunch of vassals. I think that happens unless you hold separate king/Duke titles you may still be a king and keep all those vassals but probably lose your republic trade vassals.
 
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It's certainly possible to become a feudal patrician, I did that once accidentally by granting a single barony county in northern Sweden to my brother and heir. When he inherited, he remained a noble, Castle was on top in my former capital and only other province of Riga (where I controlled both city and castle) - but I still controlled the patrician house. Went fully feudal (without ever having been doge, but I kept Agnatic Seniority at first) after fabricating a claim on the duchy of Norrland and taking it, there even was a message that my family had "died out" and a randomly generated new house had risen to Gotlander politics.

So, since it is possible to be a feudal patrician (though I'm not sure what effect that had on marriages), it's probably also possible to become a feudal doge... maybe.
 
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Apologies for the whole 'lowborn' confusion guys, I didn't realise that Patrician families *are* nobles. I thought they all belonged to House Lowborn.

@Yequr - I'm confused, so you lost your family villa or whatever that custom tier 1 holding that patricians get is? At what point did you lose the Republic mechanics? When your Baron succeeded?

That'd surely imply that you cannot run for Doge if you're a noble, right?
 
yequr said:
It's certainly possible to become a feudal patrician, I did that once accidentally by granting a single barony county in northern Sweden to my brother and heir. When he inherited, he remained a noble, Castle was on top in my former capital and only other province of Riga (where I controlled both city and castle) - but I still controlled the patrician house. Went fully feudal (without ever having been doge, but I kept Agnatic Seniority at first) after fabricating a claim on the duchy of Norrland and taking it, there even was a message that my family had "died out" and a randomly generated new house had risen to Gotlander politics.

So, since it is possible to be a feudal patrician (though I'm not sure what effect that had on marriages), it's probably also possible to become a feudal doge... maybe.
Click to expand...

What you did was not become a "feudal patrician" but rather broke away from the Republic and became a "feudal lord." This is, of course, doable as you've seen. The most obvious way to do it is to rebel from the republic when your capital holding is a castle. Another (your case) is to seize a title equal to your liege's while your capital holding is a castle. However, you, as a patrician, can hold castle-type holdings as well as city-type holdings and still be a patrician (which is what you were before, holding a county with a castle).

H.A.J.T. said:
Apologies for the whole 'lowborn' confusion guys, I didn't realise that Patrician families *are* nobles. I thought they all belonged to House Lowborn.
Click to expand...

Right, look at your character tab -- you'll see the name of your Patrician house right there.

H.A.J.T. said:
That'd surely imply that you cannot run for Doge if you're a noble, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, you lose all republic mechanics at that point.

Still, remember that you can hold ANY title (barony, county, duchy, kingdom) that does not exceed the Doge's title as a patrician and stay fully patrician. You can hold any number of castles or towns as well. However, as soon as you break away from the republic with a castle capital, you will become a feudal lord instead.
 
Tom013 said:
What you did was not become a "feudal patrician" but rather broke away from the Republic and became a "feudal lord." This is, of course, doable as you've seen. The most obvious way to do it is to rebel from the republic when your capital holding is a castle. Another (your case) is to seize a title equal to your liege's while your capital holding is a castle. However, you, as a patrician, can hold castle-type holdings as well as city-type holdings and still be a patrician (which is what you were before, holding a county with a castle).



Right, look at your character tab -- you'll see the name of your Patrician house right there.



Yes, you lose all republic mechanics at that point.

Still, remember that you can hold ANY title (barony, county, duchy, kingdom) that does not exceed the Doge's title as a patrician and stay fully patrician. You can hold any number of castles or towns as well. However, as soon as you break away from the republic with a castle capital, you will become a feudal lord instead.
Click to expand...

^I can confirm all this to be true. Essentially if you play as a Republic just got more complicated. With a republic its all about building trade posts. As soon as you marry one of your sons to a heiress (say, the vassal HRE Duchy of Swabia), he's gone from your court which means your trade post limit gets reduced - A Bad Thing. He can still inherit the Doge title... unless his wife lands him. Then he's automatically be by-passed for the next oldest in your dynasty in the Doge succession... which in my case was his son (ie: my grandson). That grandson, however, could no longer inherit the Duchy of Swabia. It passed to HIS son (ie: My great grandson).

This will all come to pass UNLESS you specifically give the "Designated Heir" honorary title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can grant that title to anyone in your dynasty, even if he is a baron or count. I gave it to my son (the one who's wife gave him a county) and suddenly he become my heir again. Then his son (my grandson) now becomes the heir to the Duchy of Swabia because he's no longer the heir to the Dogeship. Peace returns to the CK2 world of inheritance.

However, before dying, I'd become Holy Roman Emperor (ie: the liege of Swabia), so I don't know if that makes a difference. Don't forget the high crown authority thing and the prohibition against vassals being inherited outside of the kingdom.

PS: Just to clarify - you cannot set up a matrillineal marriage as a republic, ever. It's hard coded to be agnatic.
 
Yes, so long as the highest-tier title for the noble in question is less than the tier of the title of the merchant republic he stands to inherit. I frequently make use of this rule. I land dynasty members as nobles whenever possible when playing as a merchant republic. Keeping titles in the family is a plus, but the primary reason I do this is to pump up the dynastic prestige (making my life easier).
 
Kurblius said:
Originally Posted by Tom013 View Post
What you did was not become a "feudal patrician" but rather broke away from the Republic and became a "feudal lord." This is, of course, doable as you've seen. The most obvious way to do it is to rebel from the republic when your capital holding is a castle. Another (your case) is to seize a title equal to your liege's while your capital holding is a castle. However, you, as a patrician, can hold castle-type holdings as well as city-type holdings and still be a patrician (which is what you were before, holding a county with a castle).



Right, look at your character tab -- you'll see the name of your Patrician house right there.



Yes, you lose all republic mechanics at that point.

Still, remember that you can hold ANY title (barony, county, duchy, kingdom) that does not exceed the Doge's title as a patrician and stay fully patrician. You can hold any number of castles or towns as well. However, as soon as you break away from the republic with a castle capital, you will become a feudal lord instead.
Click to expand...

If you happen to be a patrician AND the head of your respective house (which from a game perspective are the only playable characters) is not your capital holding technically your house demesne that only appears on-screen via the republic interface?
 
Kurblius said:
^I can confirm all this to be true. Essentially if you play as a Republic just got more complicated. With a republic its all about building trade posts. As soon as you marry one of your sons to a heiress (say, the vassal HRE Duchy of Swabia), he's gone from your court which means your trade post limit gets reduced - A Bad Thing. He can still inherit the Doge title... unless his wife lands him. Then he's automatically be by-passed for the next oldest in your dynasty in the Doge succession... which in my case was his son (ie: my grandson). That grandson, however, could no longer inherit the Duchy of Swabia. It passed to HIS son (ie: My great grandson).

This will all come to pass UNLESS you specifically give the "Designated Heir" honorary title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can grant that title to anyone in your dynasty, even if he is a baron or count. I gave it to my son (the one who's wife gave him a county) and suddenly he become my heir again. Then his son (my grandson) now becomes the heir to the Duchy of Swabia because he's no longer the heir to the Dogeship. Peace returns to the CK2 world of inheritance.

However, before dying, I'd become Holy Roman Emperor (ie: the liege of Swabia), so I don't know if that makes a difference. Don't forget the high crown authority thing and the prohibition against vassals being inherited outside of the kingdom.

PS: Just to clarify - you cannot set up a matrillineal marriage as a republic, ever. It's hard coded to be agnatic.
Click to expand...

I thought there were limits on who within your dynasty could receive the "designated heir" honorary title. Say you have a family member who is the the Pope. Can you designate him as your heir for the republic? (game mechanics suicide) I am not quite sure if it should apply to your son in the scenario you just described, but I have tried to use it in similar situations, and even after designating, the character in question did not become my heir. I say "similar" situations since in CKII every minor detail counts in inheritance situations and I don't remember all the details.
 
djrice247 said:
If you happen to be a patrician AND the head of your respective house (which from a game perspective are the only playable characters) is not your capital holding technically your house demesne that only appears on-screen via the republic interface?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your question? Are you asking if your title holding is ALWAYS your not-on-the-map Family Palace? The answer to that, so far as I can tell is "no." The Family Palace is a special thing, but not your capital. Your regular capital is either: A) the Republic's Capital if you own no land at all or B) some place on the map. That some place on the map may be a lonely city or castle, or it may be county-level.

The easiest way to notice this is when it makes it weird for tech as a patrician. If you end up with a county somewhere and alternate between Doge and not Doge, your tech goes back and forth between the Republic's capital and your other capital. The other place to notice it is when you raise your Patrician "guard" levies or spawn a new retinue or hire mercenaries. They appear in your regular capital.
 
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