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smythw

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One area which has never been successfully addressed by any HOI game is how resources are produced and stockpiled and specifically the effects of the atlantic war, for example.

I've always found that due to the massive stockpile limits, countries like the UK can get enough materials stockpiled before sept 1939 to avoid having any shortages up till about 1944. In reality there could've been severe trouble in 1940 had Germany invested more effort pre-war in their u-boat force.

The main effect of the submarine war in the Atlantic in game is to tie up british IC building transports and perhaps to starve overseas garrisons of supplies and oil when supply ships become too scarce.

I'm not sure of the best solution to this.

Perhaps the stockpile limits should be dynamic and only increase to 100k once war has broken out? I would certainly make these values moddable.

Perhaps a new food resource which has a low stockpile limit and affects national unity if a country runs out?

It doesn't just affect the atlantic war, either. The whole idea of storing resources in a capital leads to some very strange behaviour.

I think it is an area PI should give some serious thought to.
 
Instead of capital takes it all, some distribution should be there, 2 or more depots for Majors.

Eg: you (USSR) have some factories near Vladivostok, will you stockpile coal and steel near Vladivostok or Moscow and transport that bloody weight all the way.
Same for Supplies (Ammunation, Clothes and other essentials) and Oil.

Also (USA)- Washington DC and LA are quite far away. etc.

Also Japan- A depot on mainland China will help.!!
 
Have a "warehouse" indicator per province, which means how much resource it can hold. If the province is taken you lose all supplies there. Before an assault you can move the stockpile closer to the front, so supply can reach the troops faster.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea.
 
whatever is done needs to be simple to implement as possible. Making stockpile limits dynamic(and keeping them low during peace time) would really add some strategic possibilities to the game during wartime.
 
The whole supply system from Hoi3 needs to be redone. I've no idea how they plan on doing this (or if they will change this) but it will be interesting to see.

I've always found that due to the massive stockpile limits, countries like the UK can get enough materials stockpiled before sept 1939 to avoid having any shortages up till about 1944. In reality there could've been severe trouble in 1940 had Germany invested more effort pre-war in their u-boat force.
Click to expand...

From what they've said they will be focusing more on strategic warfare in hoi4, so hopefully it will include this. Certainly naval warfare in hoi3 the AI was a giant steaming pile of crap.

But as well as making a u-boat campaign possible I hope they also make it possible to defend against it. A huge part of the royal navy spent its time escorting convoys around the world. Even battleships and full sized carriers were there to defend against surface raiders. In hoi3 you had the 'escort' command for fleets, but as far as I can tell it did nothing but make the ship move back and forward along the convoy route protecting shit all. A few times the fleet would move to a random province and never move again. I stopped using it after that.
 
"The main effect of the submarine war in the Atlantic in game is to tie up british IC building transports and perhaps to starve overseas garrisons of supplies and oil when supply ships become too scarce."
"But as well as making a u-boat campaign possible I hope they also make it possible to defend against it."

A complete and utterly devastating Uboat campaign is quite possible in HOI3, and it does lower the org and strength of units. The UK also begin sending out massive amounts of sub hunting parties to kill your subs... so all of this is already possible.

However yes the stockpiles are annoying because even when I completely destroy the UK convoy fleet they can last for more then 1 year at full IC production because they have stockpiled enough Metal and rare materials to last that long... which in reality is somewhat possible, but should have a cost associated with it.

UK suffers from the same issue Japan does, once the convoy system is broken even once... the entire empire begins to fall.
 
A complete and utterly devastating Uboat campaign is quite possible in HOI3, and it does lower the org and strength of units. The UK also begin sending out massive amounts of sub hunting parties to kill your subs... so all of this is already possible.
Click to expand...

What I was hoping for is where the main defense is actually having convoys where if the escorting fleet is large enough (and lucky enough) it can drive off enemy subs and maybe even destroy a few. But instead in hoi3 you have no idea where your convoys are to can protect them. Instead you have to wait until you get a popup telling you that you lost some convoys in so and so and you send a fleet to hunt down the submarine. While in hoi3 that could actually work I guess that in real life the submarines would usually move on just for that reason. And in a big ocean like the atlantic a sub would be hard to find.

And I know that in hoi3 you could build escort ships that worked with the convoys, but all they did was get destroyed instead of the convoys. And since they were more expensive that the convoys it made no sense.
 
One way of doing it would be to limit stockpiles of Industry input resources to say maximum 6 months of what is needed to production ( stored where the resources are consumed ) + 6 months of what you produce yourself ( stored where resources are produced ).

This would scale dynamically so that nations get stockpiles scaling with their IC, unless they are major producers in which case they get a bigger stockpile where they resources are produced.



For fuel and supplies it would make sense to limit stockpiles on these based on x months of normal needs ( for supplies ), and based on how many bases you have ( for fuel ), with the fuel stored at the bases ( prioritizing bases that are occupied ).



I am not in favor of building separate buildings that store resources.
 
YellowMoonshine said:
What I was hoping for is where the main defense is actually having convoys where if the escorting fleet is large enough (and lucky enough) it can drive off enemy subs and maybe even destroy a few. But instead in hoi3 you have no idea where your convoys are to can protect them. Instead you have to wait until you get a popup telling you that you lost some convoys in so and so and you send a fleet to hunt down the submarine. While in hoi3 that could actually work I guess that in real life the submarines would usually move on just for that reason. And in a big ocean like the atlantic a sub would be hard to find.

And I know that in hoi3 you could build escort ships that worked with the convoys, but all they did was get destroyed instead of the convoys. And since they were more expensive that the convoys it made no sense.
Click to expand...

What your complaining it quite realistic of what happened in real life.... There were never enough convoy escorts to escort convoys until 1944, which was the main reason Britain enacted the Lend Lease for destroyer escorts. There were on average 4 escorts for about 40 convoy ships, which is about 10 to 1... but in HOI3 it will begin to assign escorts to convoys up to a 1:1 ratio if you deem it important enough. On top of this Escorts through 1943 did not actually have the ability to patrol the entire length of the convoy route... something that would be hard to model. There were "kill zones" outside of air patrol range and escort range where convoys were destroyed the most.

The Germans also sunk 175 warships during the battle of the Atlantic, of which were primarily destroyers and should take longer to build. In fact I would LOVE to tell my subs to prioritize sinking escorts over convoys. The escorts do quite a bit of damage to subs, I can't keep them out on patrol endlessly until the escort problem has been dealt with.
 
Bluestreak2k5 said:
What your complaining it quite realistic of what happened in real life.... There were never enough convoy escorts to escort convoys until 1944, which was the main reason Britain enacted the Lend Lease for destroyer escorts. There were on average 4 escorts for about 40 convoy ships, which is about 10 to 1... but in HOI3 it will begin to assign escorts to convoys up to a 1:1 ratio if you deem it important enough. On top of this Escorts through 1943 did not actually have the ability to patrol the entire length of the convoy route... something that would be hard to model. There were "kill zones" outside of air patrol range and escort range where convoys were destroyed the most.

The Germans also sunk 175 warships during the battle of the Atlantic, of which were primarily destroyers and should take longer to build. In fact I would LOVE to tell my subs to prioritize sinking escorts over convoys. The escorts do quite a bit of damage to subs, I can't keep them out on patrol endlessly until the escort problem has been dealt with.
Click to expand...

I'm not asking for full coverage because your right, the allies didn't have enough ships to do that. What I'm asking for is a shift towards defending the escorts instead of hunting down the subs. In real life attempts to hunt the submarines usually hurt the allies more than the submarines fleet. In game defending against subs was just a slight irritation. All it meant was every so often sending your anti sub fleet to follow a submarine group around for a while until it lost it and add a few more convoys to the IC queue. There was no planning or having to make tough choices or anything else that made the rest of the game fun. I hope hoi4 actually makes strategic warfare fun to play.
 
You could tie resource stockpile caps to economic mobilization laws (or their equivalent in HoI4). However this would give Germany a large and completely unrealistic stockpiling advantage unless you also simulated the crippling balance of payment problems facing the German economy in the period. Germany couldn't import lots of stuff because they couldn't export enough. In game (TFH), Germany can export huge quantities of stuff and secure years worth of resources with no major problems. Even with AI automation it does a pretty good job of securing your resources unless you do a large IC build.

I have a feeling that German players would QQ if they had to face a realistic trade and economy model in game :laugh:
 
adam_grif said:
You could tie resource stockpile caps to economic mobilization laws (or their equivalent in HoI4). However this would give Germany a large and completely unrealistic stockpiling advantage unless you also simulated the crippling balance of payment problems facing the German economy in the period. Germany couldn't import lots of stuff because they couldn't export enough. In game (TFH), Germany can export huge quantities of stuff and secure years worth of resources with no major problems. Even with AI automation it does a pretty good job of securing your resources unless you do a large IC build.

I have a feeling that German players would QQ if they had to face a realistic trade and economy model in game :laugh:
Click to expand...

Germany solved many of its problems by a Keynesian model as practiced by Dr. Hjalmar Scacht, a Financial Genius of the first order, who really should get the credit for the rapid German economic growth + armament in the pre-war years, sadly he was sidelined in 1937-38 and with expected disastrous results (Goering replaced him).
He made a system called MEFO bills which was like an IOU, it solved most internal economic issue, as for external- Germany made barter treaties with Italy and the Balkan nations and later the USSR (this was very profitable for Germany, USSR paid in 18 months and Germany in 27 months; economic result- you got an interest free loan).
in short- Receivables was low and Sundry Creditors was high- a very favorable economic relation for Germany.
 
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