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Playing as Vassal... and stupid Factions

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Colruth

Colruth

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Sep 12, 2013
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So I have been trying to play a game where I am a vassal all along. Keep in mind I only play Ironman style (no savescumming, no console), so most of the hindrance here can't be dodged through these methods.

I have found that doing so is rather annoying, most of the time only due to game mechanics that makes no sense...

First there is the inept AI at times of war, who'd rather send their 15k stacks to fight a 2k rebellion that wouldnt siege anything for 3 years, than send those same troops to fight off a holy war invasion that happens to target all your lands (as well as his)... But lets put that aside, since AI may be tricky to make perfect...

My problems are mechanics that are part of game design, that could be different but are just the way it is ....cause someone felt like it or for the almighty 'game balance'

As I've discussed in another thread yesterday... if your realm, as a vassal duke, happens to stretch through 2 different de jure kingdoms that are both held by your liege... if upon succession of the kingdoms they happen to be divided (gavelkind), your own directly controlled holdings (demesne) will follow you, but every one of your vassal counts that are within de jure borders with the Kingdom that leaves the realm...you will see every single one of those vassals stolen away from you and given to the new independant king... but ok...that could have some historicity to it... even though it sounds like a very severe breach of Feudal etiquette...

But the worse I find are those annoying factions that tries to put you on the Throne... without even giving a ?/$? about what you actually want. I don't have to join the Faction and I can even fight them as a loyal vassal to the king... but that is only if the King doesnt decide to accept their demands without a fight. In which case, you get the crown without having a word about it. And all that without me having a Claim on the kingdom in the first place.

And then you can't abdicate it without going super gamey.

I don't mind things being hard or complex. But mechanics that makes no sense ...heh. Playing as a vassal seems to always be a case of just counting the years before some random dude in the back of the country decides you'd be a better King and then you can just agree.
 
And yeah, no question :p

Just meant as some kind of open discussion on the matter and perhaps tactics I had not thought of to circumvent these things without getting gamey or abusing the console
 
Being a vassal of two or more lieges would greatly complicate the game, so I understand why it's not in.

But the abdication should be included. Many times I was happy, ruling in my vassal kingdom when I was elected emperor (or put on the throne by faction, like you). This is much worse if most of the people in that empire are of your dynasty and the empire is elective - you will play as the heir to the imperial title - who cares about that kingdom you had for 300 years! Instead of one of your children you educated for many years, you will play as your idiot cousin you didn't know you had... I don't care if voluntary abdication is historical or not, I don't want that title! Or, let's say you play as Bohemia, but have some counties in Bavaria. If you get elected as HREmperor and then lose next election, you will lose your bavarian titles too!

So, abdication should be included and I'd also would like to have "this is my heir, I want to play as him next" button (especially in gavelkind...)
 
Well, I don't recall Paradox shying away from 'complicated', but ok.. It isnt required that Id end up serving two lieges...

In my last playthrough I was playing as Toulouse in Aquitaine. Over the course of the years I managed to get Barcelona in Aragon and half of the duchy of Aragon.

Now that was too big for me to hold personally so I made counts in Aragon, mainly because it was bordering the Muslims who would win if they invaded and Id rather lose counts than personal demesne...

But then the king of Aquitaine (and West Francia) decided to forge the crown of Aragon. Ok. It was Gavelkind... And then he died.

Aragon got independant, Aquitaine and W.Francia stayed together.

the county of Barcelona was in my demesne...too rich for me to give up to a vassal. So I kept it. I also kept the duchy of Barcelona.

But every single count that once served me became direct vassals of the new king of Aragon... an independent realm.

In my book, they should have stayed with me. They are part of my realm, which is part of the King's realm, not the other way around. At least that is what feudalism is, especially under Autonomous Vassals law.

But that isnt such a big deal down the line. Once you know that, you can scheme and make decisions to make sure this separation doesnt happen (Faction for succession laws, dont expand in gavelkind realms)...

The main issue really is those Factions that decides for you what title you hold.
 
When you accidentally take over a kingdom or empire, the solution is simple: imprison / banish a bunch of people, wait till a faction forms to put someone else on the throne, and then acquiesce to their demands. I guess the only issue might be if an independence faction fires first, but if you fight that one a claim faction will almost certainly fire shortly afterwards. You'll have some great counties and cash from the banishment, and you can go back to being a (more powerful) vassal. :)
 
This being said, once the HRE creates itself, or any other catholic empire... If I get King out of nowhere, I'll just swear fealty to the empire... make all those vassals that pushed me on the throne regret what they did.
 
Colruth said:
..
As I've discussed in another thread yesterday... if your realm, as a vassal duke, happens to stretch through 2 different de jure kingdoms that are both held by your liege... if upon succession of the kingdoms they happen to be divided (gavelkind), your own directly controlled holdings (demesne) will follow you, but every one of your vassal counts that are within de jure borders with the Kingdom that leaves the realm...you will see every single one of those vassals stolen away from you and given to the new independant king... but ok...that could have some historicity to it... even though it sounds like a very severe breach of Feudal etiquette...
Click to expand...

Wow, is that still the case ? Lets see if that happens to me in my current game , as i'm in pretty much in the same situation.
Should be changed then. Well i don't know of an historical example to justify that.
I assume it's a problem with 'da engine somehow.

But the worse I find are those annoying factions that tries to put you on the Throne... without even giving a ?/$? about what you actually want. I don't have to join the Faction and I can even fight them as a loyal vassal to the king... but that is only if the King doesnt decide to accept their demands without a fight. In which case, you get the crown without having a word about it. And all that without me having a Claim on the kingdom in the first place.
Click to expand...

Kind of happened pretty much in real life (i remember two examples frome HRE and England). Usually to weak guys whom the other stronger dukes prefered.
It should though involve something like blackmailing or pressuring yours into that position and not just happen as of now.
First to make it more comprehensible and second.., well immersion/plausibility and stuff. :D
 
I stopped playing as a vassal when a faction started to put me on the throne fired. I didn't want to be king so I helped put it down and when we won I ended up in jail. It felt so stupid.
 
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