CK2 vs EU4
- Thread starter TeutonicDane23
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I'm new to EU4, CK2 and paradox games in general. I've been following the forums on EU4 and recently purchased CK2 so I began frequenting here as well. It seems both EU4 and CK2 are heading in a direction where the game mechanics have been patched to provide new level of challenge for players. Sadly the mechanic chosen also ruins immersion and encourages cheese tactics and ahistoric play to circumvent the new 'challenge'. I'm sure this wasn't the original intention of the creators but something seems to be going awry in both games at the same time.
It is almost like they have a new advisor/consultant providing ideas to make EU4 and CK2 the next great thing but these ideas are conflicting with the fans perception of both games. I do hope the devs are reading all these comments and will steer back to the right path in future updates to provide a fun, interesting game that emulates the time period in a manner that doesn't detract from the player's experience.
It is almost like they have a new advisor/consultant providing ideas to make EU4 and CK2 the next great thing but these ideas are conflicting with the fans perception of both games. I do hope the devs are reading all these comments and will steer back to the right path in future updates to provide a fun, interesting game that emulates the time period in a manner that doesn't detract from the player's experience.
Yes, I originally thought Johan had gone insane, but now that Doomdark is acting crazy too it must either be a pod people or brain slug invasion over in Sweden.
I never understood why people complained about the last EUIV patch.
Yes vassal-feeding feels cheesy but it's not 'broken' imo.
At least not the way CKII is atm.
Yes vassal-feeding feels cheesy but it's not 'broken' imo.
At least not the way CKII is atm.
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Vassal feeding was in the release version of EU4, was nerfed slightly from 1.2, and was not generally what the 1.2 is the worst thing ever camp complained about. The primary complaints were about the combat and diplomacy changes, especially the unannounced addition of the number of provinces AE multiplier that severely punished any expansion at all after 200 or so provinces.
And I'm still incredulous that they consider it WAD that Austria, and a select few other countries, can diplo-vassalize regardless of size.
And I'm still incredulous that they consider it WAD that Austria, and a select few other countries, can diplo-vassalize regardless of size.
Interesting thread in case you missed it as i did, as "CK2 vs EU4" is obviously more sensational. 
Event-troops-function-based-on-pre-2.0-levy-values.
Event-troops-function-based-on-pre-2.0-levy-values.
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This is a very interesting perspective.
As a person that became a part of the EU mod community and who partook in CK mods all those years ago, I see the influence of some very experienced and long-time Paradox community members on the current directions taken in both the CK and EU franchises. I am happy for the most part, especially with the EU direction and I can thank Wiz and others that have come directly from the mod community for these changes.
This does not mean there shouldn't be tweaks and adjustments. I've stated before that the ERE or Byzantium realm should be restructured as one recent example.
I'm still investigating things but every day I am convinced more and more that the de jure structure should be changed at its root.
It is interesting to see posts like this emerge.
Curiously, just having came from EU4 side, I find vassals to be the best thing there, as Miaow says...
From my experience it seems like CK2 is a game about how the feudal system is terribly bad and is actually great for technological advancement. (Since every duke generate tech point)
XD never thought of that.
At least the first part will hopefully be patched. The second point...mmhh what's the problem there?
Funny who you call "casual players". First of all you have no idea how much time the people complaining have invested into this game.
It is actually more likely that most of the people who complain have invested several hundred hours into this game. That's why Paradox will listen to these rightful claims.
Owning every county yourself, ignoring the demesne limit. It gives you a ton of troops if you blob enough and the tax penalty becomes a non-issue.
^^ Also I agree with redsimon. Us "casuals" paid for the game and we deserve to be able to enjoy it. Plus most of us have been supporting the game by buying DLC and telling our friends about PDS, etc. But having dukes become harmful (they were always a risk but now there is no other reason to have them apart from tech), having poorly scaled event armies (either starting troops or flockers/adventurers) outnumber a popular king 3-1 and stuff like that... its a bit much. If they want to harm their long term players its moves like this (without fixing them) that will do it, not catering to a "hard core"* market. CK2 and EU4 were the most successful PDS games to date because they were accessible for most strategy fans (after some time), changing that isn't a logical move.
* Quick note: I really hate the supposed hardcore/casual divide. Its petty and doesn't even exist outside of strawman arguments.
It's the (extremely gamey and ahistorical) tactic of simply banishing all your vassals until you hold everything directly (but handing out the cities and churches) for massive levies, then occasionally banishing rich mayors and bishops for cash. Another way of looking at it is completely avoiding actually using feudalism in a game that is supposed to he about feudalism. It gets you massive levies and completely breaks the game.
You are not a casual gamer. Casual Gamers are people who play casual games. CK2 does not fall into that category.
So creating the strawman yourself is quite pointless. I consider it worse when people start calling other gamers, hardcore gamers. Because believe it or not we are all gamers, some people play more than others and prefer that games have difficulty. When games get easier to accommodate for people with less time and skills, obviously people will complain, but calling them hardcore gamers is stupid. This game has progressively become easier with each release and if it returns to its origins and increases the overall difficulty, I for one would be quite happy. Do not forget there is a difficulty setting which allows you to play against a weaker AI after all. Normal difficulty should be even footing with the AI, not easier to accommodate for less skill.
Yep.
In the current patch, this exploit is particularly egregious as there is no meaningful penalty for going over demesne limit (at least if you don't have count or higher level vassals).
If I came across as condescending or strawmanning (I was responding to ASPGolan, though I admit I did it poorly) I apologize. I wasn't calling myself a casual gamer (or your side a hardcore one), but when all of us who attack this patch get labeled that way by some it can come across that way.
And we aren't complaining about the difficulty, we are complaining about how this patch has made dukes essentially useless, and event troops an Easy Button in some cases (I agree with the levy nerf but the rest of the game needs to be changed to account for it). That feels like an arbitrary way to make the game more difficult. Difficulty has to be done the right way.
Also, I thought the difficulty had zero impact on the AI? It says (for the lower ones) that its limited to a morale nerf and a fertility boost on your end. Just curious but is there a hidden impact on the AI/vassal behavior?
I have not fiddled with difficulty after moving from easy after my first game, but I do recall that harder difficulties increased the AI levy size. Might have been different for lesser difficulties, been a while since I looked.
Dukes are not useless, they are less useful in regards to troops if they are poorly skilled. For example a high stewardship duke with 3 counties provides more troops than a high martial with 1 county and 2 count vassals. So differing vassals with different skill sets if actually more important. Just because someone wants to cheese it out and use what most consider to be an exploit, doesn't mean they are worse either.
Event troops, primarily starting game troops might need a look, I done a quick Karen game and blitzed my neighbours, created a kingdom and was on my way to quickly forming persia with almost no real effort. I'd say 10 times easier than before, so there could be some work there to be done. Adventurers and rebellion troops, small chance of a larger than you can field forming, you really have to be a bad ruler or have some bad luck to get them. Since they scale with your size, I don't see the problem at all. If you don't manage your vassals and they rebel, there should be a chance this happens. Previous versions before factions and these stacks were introduced, were much harder to deal with. Non de jure, distance penalties and a revolt all factored into more revolts happening, which meant a rebellion would result in more if not dealt with quickly, or simply letting them win. With factions these stacks were made to help ensure faction rebellions worked, because at present the human can never actually lose one, unless really unlucky regardless of vulture spawn. If they make them more difficult than before I am for it.
Internal County Rebellions, somewhat larger than they were supposed to be I think, and we will likely see them become smaller. But I like their size now, because it means you must pay attention your counties and actually manage your realm.