Rebel movements should not be able to grow in fascist and communist states

Hardcore_gamer · Sep 2, 2013

It doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't the whole point of fascism that you don't have to care about what the people think because you have a lovely propaganda state to brainwash everyone?

In my current Japan game fascist rebels took over, and I have now been suffering from jakobins and communist obtaining massive support. I just finished crushing a very large jakobin revolt, but even then they appear to be getting almost all of their support right back at once! And the communist are almost as big and are growing in support also. And this is IN SPITE of me having passed almost all of the social reforms that improve peoples lives and poor pops paying only a 10% tax! WTF!!!!!!!!

On the politics screen, it appears that over 40% of the nation wants public meatings and that the fact they don't have them is making lots of people very angry. I guess that legalizing public meetings might make people less angry, but I should not have to in the first place when I am running a fascist regime that is suppose to be able to force its way into peoples throats.

The game doesn't appear to model the difference between a "classical dictatorship" and the kind of all-powerful states that existed in real world fascist and communist states. Rebel movements should not be able to grow anywhere near as big in fascist and communist states like they can elsewhere. It just doesn't make sense that when I am running a ruthless fascist or stalinist state that logically should be in full control of society, that pop con actually INCREASES rather then decreases.

I suggest a simple solution to the problem: Create an extra press reform called "propaganda press" that only fascists and communists can use. It would work the same way as state press, except that it would be MUCH more powerful and would also completely get rid of pop con and thus support for rebel movements. In addition, it would also give a massive bonus to ruling party support to make the population in the country slowly become fascist or communist over time until almost everyone agress with the ruling party. It would be much more logical and realistic.

Thoughts?

Orko80 · Sep 2, 2013

Well just switching to a fachist goverment isn't that much like the propaganda machine you make it out to be. But you can steer your country towards fachism with the right propaganda. And propaganda comes when you have elections. press the facist issues. Use NF for radical loyality.

Just switching the goverment doesn't change the opinion of all your population. And a small revolution of 10% of your country to instigate the fachist goverment is certanly not enough to stop the liberal and communist agenda's.

even more in the opposide way. They saw revolution works and want their own revolution untill the victorius arises.

Victoria2 politics is a very long term game. The WW2 propaganda states also didn't happen overnight...

Also the key to stop rebels is getting mil down. lowering taxes isn't solving that problem. Also passing reforms is only short term. The only thing that helps is a healthy booming economy. If the poor can buy alll the drugs and alcohol they want than they stop revolting.

Hardcore_gamer · Sep 2, 2013

Orko80 said:
Well just switching to a fachist goverment isn't that much like the propaganda machine you make it out to be. But you can steer your country towards fachism with the right propaganda. And propaganda comes when you have elections. press the facist issues. Use NF for radical loyality.

Just switching the goverment doesn't change the opinion of all your population. And a small revolution of 10% of your country to instigate the fachist goverment is certanly not enough to stop the liberal and communist agenda's.

even more in the opposide way. They saw revolution works and want their own revolution untill the victorius arises.

Victoria2 politics is a very long term game. The WW2 propaganda states also didn't happen overnight...

And I am not saying all hostility should just go away right away. As I suggested, there should be a new propaganda press reform that basically gives huge bonunes to ruling party support and a large minus to con. That way, even though anger and hostility would not just go away right away it should still be possible for the new order to take control of society within a certain period of time. Just exactly how long it should take should of course depend on a number of factors, like how high the con in the country is at the time of the fascist/communist takeover. I would argue that for a nation with low con it should take about 5-10 years to take complete control of society, while in a nation with a high literacy and lots of con it should take about 10-20 years depending on how much or little support the fascists or communists already had in the first place.

I find it to be entirely plausable that if given the time it takes a single generation to grow up, that a fascist/communist state would be able to completely insure the loyalty of its people.

Orko80 said:
Also the key to stop rebels is getting mil down. lowering taxes isn't solving that problem. Also passing reforms is only short term. The only thing that helps is a healthy booming economy. If the poor can buy alll the drugs and alcohol they want than they stop revolting.

My current Japan game says otherwise. Almost all of my angry pops are angry because public meatings are banned. Before the fascists got to power my people were also very angry because of the lack of legal public meetings, so I allowed them and the anger mostly went away. But then the fascists got to power and public meetings got banned again, and then everything went to hell.

Orko80 · Sep 2, 2013

Hardcore_gamer said:
My current Japan game says otherwise. Almost all of my angry pops are angry because public meatings are banned. Before the fascists got to power my people were also very angry because of the lack of legal public meetings, so I allowed them and the anger mostly went away. But then the fascists got to power and public meetings got banned again, and then everything went to hell.

As i said that's not the way it works. PoPs get angry and choose a reform they get behind. Or rather when their militancy raises they form/join a rbel faction that represent's one of their main issues.
Passing reforms lowers overall militancy (except for those that want other reforms, well they still get lowerd but also raised).

So passing a reform will lower short term the militancy. But If the reasons still exist why they went militant in the first place they will come back and want something else. While passing reform's open up new avenues of getting angry much faster. Spiraling your country down the revolution path.

Reform desire will raise militancy of it's own. The main force to counter this is getting POP's everyday and Luxury need's fullfilled. this lowers militancy. Much stronger than clergy do.

So it is not enough to let them have money. the money is worthless when they don't have access to unlocked good's. ANd you unlock goods with industry technology. But getting those goods isn't that easy even as Japan.

. As I suggested, there should be a new propaganda press reform that basically gives huge bonunes to ruling party support

That is the standard party reform in place. Supressing all other party's and pushing them into voting the ruling party. The question you ahve to give yourself here is what ruling party's where in power with this reform aktive?
Any other party will get quite the anti revolt if they get forced quickly into power.

The reason why they wet so angry about the roll back of publick meetings is that most of your POP's are liberal and communist. So revoking a policy they care about makes them angry. If they where Reaktionary they would have been happy.

It is the same thing when you start as Japan. You start with a reaktionary party in power. And you have no reforms since you are not civilized. So all POP's will gain reaktionary party loyality. And every westernizing decision will anger them untill they revolt.
But when you switch to the conservative party right at the start. You don't get any revolt's while westernizing.

The POP's need to be edukated and nudged into the direktion or you face Huge revolt's.

Hardcore_gamer · Sep 2, 2013

Orko80 said:
As i said that's not the way it works. PoPs get angry and choose a reform they get behind. Or rather when their militancy raises they form/join a rbel faction that represent's one of their main issues.
Passing reforms lowers overall militancy (except for those that want other reforms, well they still get lowerd but also raised).

So passing a reform will lower short term the militancy. But If the reasons still exist why they went militant in the first place they will come back and want something else. While passing reform's open up new avenues of getting angry much faster. Spiraling your country down the revolution path.

Reform desire will raise militancy of it's own. The main force to counter this is getting POP's everyday and Luxury need's fullfilled. this lowers militancy. Much stronger than clergy do.

So it is not enough to let them have money. the money is worthless when they don't have access to unlocked good's. ANd you unlock goods with industry technology. But getting those goods isn't that easy even as Japan.

That is the standard party reform in place. Supressing all other party's and pushing them into voting the ruling party. The question you ahve to give yourself here is what ruling party's where in power with this reform aktive?
Any other party will get quite the anti revolt if they get forced quickly into power.

The reason why they wet so angry about the roll back of publick meetings is that most of your POP's are liberal and communist. So revoking a policy they care about makes them angry. If they where Reaktionary they would have been happy.

It is the same thing when you start as Japan. You start with a reaktionary party in power. And you have no reforms since you are not civilized. So all POP's will gain reaktionary party loyality. And every westernizing decision will anger them untill they revolt.
But when you switch to the conservative party right at the start. You don't get any revolt's while westernizing.

The POP's need to be edukated and nudged into the direktion or you face Huge revolt's.

No, the pops aren't angry because they can't afford to buy their stuff, they are angry because the fascists took away public meetings. The revolts would probably almost go away if I were simply to legalize them again, but I don't want to because being a fascist state where people can meet together in peace makes no sense to me.

Also, state press is not really the same as a propaganda press.

A state press merely means the state controls all news media, but a propaganda press is basically an advanced organized system of propaganda and brainwashing. I don't feel the two are the same.

I actually modded this into the game a couple of hours ago once I realized that it's not very difficult and currently its the same as state press except that it gives you a 75% bonus to suppresion rather then 25 and gives a -80% modifier to con rather then only 25%. Though I still haven't found the game file where you can add descriptions for your reform yet, so at the moment the in-game reform is just called "propaganda_press" and has no description, so it looks rather uncool. It also doesn't increase ruling party support at the moment. I also haven't made it so that fascists and communists use it as their defult reform.

Orko80 · Sep 2, 2013

Hardcore_gamer said:
Also, state press is not really the same as a propaganda press.

I'm not refering to state press. It's the "only underground party's allowed" that supresses other party's and increases suport of the ruling party.

And yes they are aperently not angry to not buy stuff. But it is more like they are not more happy course they can't buy stuff. You will never see them beeing unhappy course they can't buy stuff.
If they are in the demografiks blue you get no modifier. they get angry if they can't get any of their need's. they get happier when they get a reduktion to militancy if they can get their every day need's (yellow in the pie chart) and they get a very significant reduction in militancy if they can get their luxury need's (green in pie chart).

So when all your Pop's are "only" blue they get no increase in militancy. But reformdesire, pluarity and conciusness will raise their militancy if their top issues aren't met.

So yes they are angry course of not having their meeting places. But they wouldn't care if they could get all the furniture, clothing or tobaco they want.

While over the months the supression of other political party's will sway them towards the Nationalist ides (only underground party allowed).
Printing press has not that much todo with that. It raises different stat's. The propaganda machine is the political reforms about party's not press.

lizardo · Sep 2, 2013

There were lots of rebellions in Communist states, you just never heard of them. Stalin wiped out a whole city that rebelled. There are plenty of opportunities and motives for rebellion, but also the swift and ruthless action of the Communists/Fascists tends to keep them from succeeding.

Empires can act the same way. Ivan the Terrible decimated Novgorod for its attempts to be independent. And then there were the Circassian wars.

In America you can have things like the Whiskey Rebellion, but these things tend to die out because there isn't much support for extreme actions in American political culture.

Hardcore_gamer · Sep 2, 2013

Orko80 said:
I'm not refering to state press. It's the "only underground party's allowed" that supresses other party's and increases suport of the ruling party.

And yes they are aperently not angry to not buy stuff. But it is more like they are not more happy course they can't buy stuff. You will never see them beeing unhappy course they can't buy stuff.
If they are in the demografiks blue you get no modifier. they get angry if they can't get any of their need's. they get happier when they get a reduktion to militancy if they can get their every day need's (yellow in the pie chart) and they get a very significant reduction in militancy if they can get their luxury need's (green in pie chart).

So when all your Pop's are "only" blue they get no increase in militancy. But reformdesire, pluarity and conciusness will raise their militancy if their top issues aren't met.

So yes they are angry course of not having their meeting places. But they wouldn't care if they could get all the furniture, clothing or tobaco they want.

While over the months the supression of other political party's will sway them towards the Nationalist ides (only underground party allowed).
Printing press has not that much todo with that. It raises different stat's. The propaganda machine is the political reforms about party's not press.

lizardo said:
There were lots of rebellions in Communist states, you just never heard of them. Stalin wiped out a whole city that rebelled. There are plenty of opportunities and motives for rebellion, but also the swift and ruthless action of the Communists/Fascists tends to keep them from succeeding.

Empires can act the same way. Ivan the Terrible decimated Novgorod for its attempts to be independent. And then there were the Circassian wars.

In America you can have things like the Whiskey Rebellion, but these things tend to die out because there isn't much support for extreme actions in American political culture.

And as I have already stated, I am not suggesting that all dislike of the people in charge should just go away right away, but rather they should be able to slowly indocrinate the population over the course of 10-20 years depending on how popular the new regime is. It only takes a totalitarian state a single generation at most to obtain the loyalty of the population through propaganda and brainwashing.

Deathknight15 · Sep 2, 2013

The reason I disagree with that reform is that most fascist dictatorships simply didn't manage to brainwash that effectively, even if they tried. I would say Nazi Germany is a extraordinary case of brainwashing and even they didn't succeed in getting everyone.

Have you tried looking at the militancy of the pops to see what is adding to it actually is? I have noticed consistently that although pops will have big reform desires when their needs are being met it is decreased pretty well.

As a fascist party, I have also noticed that it is very important to encourage your policies especially jingoism. One of the best ways to get your pops to shut up is to start a war with high jingoism.

Use national foci to increase support, pick choices in events carefully, fight glorious wars of conquest to get the resources your people need to be content little sheep, research consciousness decreases and avoid consciousness increases.

If you cannot keep your revolts down even with all that, you probably are suffering from highly-literate-liberal-and-socialist-itis. You probably got huge liberal populations from westernizing and industrialization makes plenty of socialists.

Edit: Vanilla does make rebels alittle bit ax-crazy I will admit. Implacable rebels isn't really a problem unless you mess up in PDM. I would suggest you try it if you haven't already.

Hardcore_gamer · Sep 2, 2013

Deathknight15 said:
The reason I disagree with that reform is that most fascist dictatorships simply didn't manage to brainwash that effectively, even if they tried. I would say Nazi Germany is a extraordinary case of brainwashing and even they didn't succeed in getting everyone.

The game is an abstraction. Its true not every fascist or communist country in real life turned into a Nazi or Stalinist style state, but since this is a game abstractions must be made.

Deathknight15 said:
As a fascist party, I have also noticed that it is very important to encourage your policies especially jingoism. One of the best ways to get your pops to shut up is to start a war with high jingoism.

Use national foci to increase support, pick choices in events carefully, fight glorious wars of conquest to get the resources your people need to be content little sheep, research consciousness decreases and avoid consciousness increases.

lol, no. I am NOT going to send most of my army out of the country at the same time millions of jakobins and communists are plotting a massive revolt. It just sounds like a great way to lose control of the country.

Deathknight15 said:
If you cannot keep your revolts down even with all that, you probably are suffering from highly-literate-liberal-and-socialist-itis. You probably got huge liberal populations from westernizing and industrialization makes plenty of socialists.

Is it possible to just allow the revolters to revolt over and over again until you have basically destroyed them all? Or will jakobin and communist revolts just happen until the end of days because they are pissed?

Deathknight15 · Sep 2, 2013

Hardcore_gamer said:
lol, no. I am NOT going to send most of my army out of the country at the same time millions of jakobins and communists are plotting a massive revolt. It just sounds like a great way to lose control of the country.

Well obviously not if a rebellion is about to break out. The wise thing to do would to start the war before this issue got out of control. Besides, I'm sure there are plenty of add-to-sphere wars that don't require your entire army. Gets you more resources too, which is obviously important to get the needs met modifier.

Hardcore_gamer said:
Is it possible to just allow the revolters to revolt over and over again until you have basically destroyed them all? Or will jakobin and communist revolts just happen until the end of days because they are pissed?

Well, getting defeated decreases their militancy, but theoretically the rebellion will regrow until its causes are dealt with. Like I and others have said you need to convince your population that your dictatorship is really a good thing.
Have you gotten all the pertinent techs? (decreasing con, decreasing mil, reducing reb org)

GC13 · Sep 3, 2013

Hardcore_gamer said:
The game is an abstraction. Its true not every fascist or communist country in real life turned into a Nazi or Stalinist style state, but since this is a game abstractions must be made.

That's not an abstraction. An abstraction would be something like comparing your suppression efficiency to the pop's literacy and reducing militancy accordingly. What you're asking for is ahistorical and unrealistic. 1984 was scary because the authoritarian state was ridiculously hyper-competent, while real regimes of its ilk tend to suffer from subpar management because anyone with any power is nakedly looking out for their own interests and not the state's; you're combining typical rent-seeking behavior with reduced oversight.

unmerged(391327) · Sep 3, 2013

Hardcore_gamer said:
And as I have already stated, I am not suggesting that all dislike of the people in charge should just go away right away, but rather they should be able to slowly indocrinate the population over the course of 10-20 years depending on how popular the new regime is. It only takes a totalitarian state a single generation at most to obtain the loyalty of the population through propaganda and brainwashing.

Except the game does simulate this. Unless you're seriously screwing up, your population will gradually tend towards low militancy conservatism (that is, satisfaction with the present government). In a proletarian dictatorship, the conservatives will support the present regime.

It's also just patently false that, within a single generation, totalitarian regimes are able to completely brainwash populations into obedience. For those regimes that did actually survive long enough to see more than one generation (so, everyone but the Nazis, basically), there were still vocal opposition movements from all demographics and of all ideologies. Soviet propaganda was extensive, yet Eastern Europe saw constant rebellions and the Soviet Union was subject to internal instability. China had a Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward, and that ended in Tienanmen Square. People are very diverse and have hugely divergent interests, and, even though propaganda and screw with younger generations, people are a lot more intransigent than you'd expect - "the state" doesn't just monolithically determine how everyone in society thinks.

I think you're seriously overestimating the effectiveness of state propaganda. Monarchies had widespread propaganda and secret police as well, but rebellions were also frequent. Fascist and communist states aren't just the cartoon "big bads" who get transformed into a giant war machine. As above posters mentioned, Oceania from 1984 was a caricature, not a real depiction, of what life under totalitarian/authoritarian (and there's a big difference) is really like. Things are a lot more complicated than you lead on, and I think the game does a fine job already in that regard.

Search

Rebel movements should not be able to grow in fascist and communist states

Hardcore_gamer

General

Orko80

Lt. General

Hardcore_gamer

General

Orko80

Lt. General

Hardcore_gamer

General

Orko80

Lt. General

lizardo

Major

Hardcore_gamer

General

Deathknight15

Major

Hardcore_gamer

General

Deathknight15

Major

GC13

The Last Emperor of Sol

unmerged(391327)

Second Lieutenant