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Chris King doesn't know the game's own mechanics?

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grisamentum

grisamentum

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Feb 29, 2012
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http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/02/05/crusader-kings-ii-the-old-gods-everything-we-know-so-far/

In the above-linked interview with PC Gamer, they asked about landless adventurers. Chris King for Paradox answered this:

So the landless adventurers you mentioned aren’t actually playable?

No, not as far as I know. Basically, the adventurer system is not fully implemented yet. So it’s in our progression. But our idea is, landless characters can be a danger to you. So just because you’ve kicked out the guy who claims your title—he doesn’t have any land—doesn’t mean he’s not a threat. Our goal is to try and tie them in with rebels. So rebels will now rebel for a title claimant.

So, is this something that would maybe be moddable? In terms of making adventurers playable?

The engine doesn’t really support that. So I don’t think we can make landless characters playable. I mean, we had to to actually create special settlements for the republican families, with the palace thing. Which was their core settlement, so they would always be landed.
Click to expand...

But of course, that's completely wrong. The engine supports landless characters, period. Until recently (or possibly still), you could even select the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks to play as. Whether or not that was disabled intentionally, the engine has no problem doing it, and I've played them.

They did not need to create "special settlements" for the republican families - they could have been playable already. It just gives you something to do when you're not landed, and gives you a power base outside of the traditional landed titles.

So what's the real answer, Paradox? Will landless adventurers be playable, or is there a different reason they won't be? I mean, ideally you're not going to play landless long; your only interaction would be through events and moving around on the map (including battles), which could be interesting, but obviously loses the whole landed dimension.
 
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I think he means landless = no titles.

Yeah there are ways to play as the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks, but that is bugged and not supported. Landless and titleless characters are not playable.
 
Tapscott said:
I think he means landless = no titles.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I edited to clarify that he is explicitly talking about landless characters, not "titleless characters" by including the previous question.

Yeah there are ways to play as the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks, but that is bugged and not supported. Landless and titleless characters are not playable.
Click to expand...

"Not supported"? That's not the question. The question is whether the engine allows it. Obviously it does.

He explicitly says "So I don’t think we can make landless characters playable," when in reality they already are. This is like arguing that, right now, pagans aren't playable, so therefore the engine doesn't support making them playable.
 
True. I will say that all of his answers for this interview sound as if he were... I dunno. Out of it?

In any case I don't really see how you compare Pagans and landless adventurers. There has been no mentioning of whether the Adventurers will even have any title, and the game auto-ends if you end up as a character with no titles. As he says the engine doesn't really support it, he does leave some room to manover. Sounds like he means that they aren't meant to be screwed around with, but you can if you really want to. Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
grisamentum said:
He explicitly says "So I don’t think we can make landless characters playable," when in reality they already are. This is like arguing that, right now, pagans aren't playable, so therefore the engine doesn't support making them playable.
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Someone holding an always = yes title is not the same as a landless character. The Grandmaster of the Knight Templars is not a landless courtier, he is the title holder of a title that cannot be destroyed.

From what I read about the adventurers these will not be title holders but true landless guys, who might create a realm if they succeed in their adventure (conquest). Since the engine doesn't allow creating and destroying always = yes titles on the fly, there is no way to represent them as a mercenary band, and thus they cannot be made playable.
 
grisamentum said:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/02/05/crusader-kings-ii-the-old-gods-everything-we-know-so-far/

In the above-linked interview with PC Gamer, they asked about landless adventurers. Chris King for Paradox answered this:



But of course, that's completely wrong. The engine supports landless characters, period. Until recently (or possibly still), you could even select the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks to play as. Whether or not that was disabled intentionally, the engine has no problem doing it, and I've played them.

They did not need to create "special settlements" for the republican families - they could have been playable already. It just gives you something to do when you're not landed, and gives you a power base outside of the traditional landed titles.

So what's the real answer, Paradox? Will landless adventurers be playable, or is there a different reason they won't be? I mean, ideally you're not going to play landless long; your only interaction would be through events and moving around on the map (including battles), which could be interesting, but obviously loses the whole landed dimension.
Click to expand...

This has been answered, over and over again. We received a Day 1 confirmation that landless characters (Adventurers) will NOT be playable.
 
grisamentum said:
But of course, that's completely wrong. The engine supports landless characters, period. Until recently (or possibly still), you could even select the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks to play as. Whether or not that was disabled intentionally, the engine has no problem doing it, and I've played them.
Click to expand...

The engine supports it, but the game would need extensive modification before they are supported. Hell, at the moment playing mercs basically consists of this:
1: Spend your early gold ASAP on nobles and stuff for chancellors.
2: Declare war of independance on Liege while hes distracted.
3: Hope you dont get crushed by Liege doomstack (even the Mamluks/Ghilman, with their 6K doomstacks, can be crushed)
4: Win.
5: Forge claim on count
6: DOW and get county
7: Forge claim on duchy
8: DOW and get duchy
9: Switch duchy to primary title and play as normal duke with a dynasty. Proceed to accumulate empire as normal, but with an extra titular duchy title and a free stack of mercs you can summon at will for 0 gold (You still pay maintenance, though).

In essence, its basically working up to county/duchy level, than playing as a normal feudal lord with free mercs on demand.
 
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There is no big "gotcha!" moment here - just because you can play as the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks on a technicality does not mean they're going to go "oops you caught us!" and make landless characters playable.
 
hylander25k said:
This has been answered, over and over again. We received a Day 1 confirmation that landless characters (Adventurers) will NOT be playable.
Click to expand...

Did you actually read my post??

So what's the real answer, Paradox? Will landless adventurers be playable, or is there a different reason they won't be?
Click to expand...

Obviously if we know they won't be, the question is "Why not?" And since Chris King doesn't know why... why won't they be?
 
gradenko_2000 said:
There is no big "gotcha!" moment here - just because you can play as the Varangian Guard or the Mamluks on a technicality does not mean they're going to go "oops you caught us!" and make landless characters playable.
Click to expand...

Wow. It always amazes me to what extent people lack the ability to separate distinct concepts.

He says:

landless adventures won't be playable.... (ok fine we heard that before; why not?)
... because the engine can't handle playing a landless character (what no that's obviously wrong)

The question then, is, Why won't landless characters be playable?
 
Novacat said:
The engine supports it
Click to expand...

Yes, obviously.


but the game would need extensive modification before they are supported. Hell, at the moment playing mercs basically consists of this:
1: Spend your early gold ASAP on nobles and stuff for chancellors.
2: Declare war of independance on Liege while hes distracted.
3: Hope you dont get crushed by Liege doomstack (even the Mamluks/Ghilman, with their 6K doomstacks, can be crushed)
4: Win.
5: Forge claim on count
6: DOW and get county
7: Forge claim on duchy
8: DOW and get duchy
9: Switch duchy to primary title and play as normal duke with a dynasty. Proceed to accumulate empire as normal, but with an extra titular duchy title and a free stack of mercs you can summon at will for 0 gold (You still pay maintenance, though).

In essence, its basically working up to county/duchy level, than playing as a normal feudal lord with free mercs on demand.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah I totally agree (although actually you do have to pay the maintenance on them).

The question is, since landless adventures will obviously have some kind of events of their own (to generate troops for their armies), which could easily have some MTTH modifiers and decisions... why won't they be playable?

I mean we're not talking about "real" development problems (like coding serious new features beyond those already being coding) - we're talking about event writing.
 
Novacat said:
The engine supports it, but the game would need extensive modification before they are supported. Hell, at the moment playing mercs basically consists of this:
1: Spend your early gold ASAP on nobles and stuff for chancellors.
2: Declare war of independance on Liege while hes distracted.
3: Hope you dont get crushed by Liege doomstack (even the Mamluks/Ghilman, with their 6K doomstacks, can be crushed)
4: Win.
5: Forge claim on count
6: DOW and get county
7: Forge claim on duchy
8: DOW and get duchy
9: Switch duchy to primary title and play as normal duke with a dynasty. Proceed to accumulate empire as normal, but with an extra titular duchy title and a free stack of mercs you can summon at will for 0 gold (You still pay maintenance, though).

In essence, its basically working up to county/duchy level, than playing as a normal feudal lord with free mercs on demand.
Click to expand...

Funny story, I gave the Kingdom of Finland to the Teutonic Knights as a Joke as the Irish Empire in CK2+ and it made them my vassal. They died childless and the Teutonic Knights passed to me. Got me some nice 8k doom stacks for 0 piety cost.
 
grisamentum said:
The question is, since landless adventures will obviously have some kind of events of their own (to generate troops for their armies), which could easily have some MTTH modifiers and decisions... why won't they be playable?

I mean we're not talking about "real" development problems (like coding serious new features beyond those already being coding) - we're talking about event writing.
Click to expand...

And what exactly would you be doing before an invasion and afterwards if you fail? With no vassals, no court, no events/decisions beside the invasion ones. Twiddle your thumbs?

Also, even if it's true that landless characters are playable, landless and titleless characters are not. Even if King is wrong about the reason, the problem of them being unplayable still exist, just not because of their landlessness, but because of their titlessness.
 
Landless characters will not be playable. This is not because the engine does not support it, but because it would be an extreme amount of work coming up with interesting gameplay for them and altering the GUI.
 
To be honest most of the replies in that interview include "I think so". It doesnt sound like King is that involved in the development of this expansion which makes me wonder why was he chosen for the interview. Still it was a nice apetizer while we wait.

Edit: sounds like Doomdark would have been a better choice but maybe they were afraid he would reveal too much :laugh:
 
Doomdark said:
Landless characters will not be playable. This is not because the engine does not support it, but because it would be an extreme amount of work coming up with interesting gameplay for them and altering the GUI.
Click to expand...
That's a valid and sensible reason, thanks for elaborating Doomdark.
 
Klarum said:
To be honest most of the replies in that interview include "I think so". It doesnt sound like King is that involved in the development of this expansion which makes me wonder why was he chosen for the interview. Still it was a nice apetizer while we wait.

Edit: sounds like Doomdark would have been a better choice but maybe they were afraid he would reveal too much :laugh:
Click to expand...

Or maybe we are a bit vague early on since things are bound to change during development and we don't want a rage-storm about some feature we supposedly "promised would be in" :)
 
well he works on most projects doesnt he; so i wouldnt be surprised if he not up to scratch on everything - but he obviously knows what hes doing otherwise he wouldnt be at the company lol
 
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