Culture spheres in Balkans

bosniandragon · Nov 22, 2012

Hi everyone!

I'm quite excited about the new release of Europa Universalis, as I've been following the franchise ever since the EU II was released back in the good ol' days

However, when it comes to cultural spheres, I couldn't help but notice some inconsistencies in the Balkans, especially in Bosnia (where I live IRL). Considering the kingdom of Bosnia was ruled by an indigenous Bosnian dynasty Kotromanić with Bosnian people and culture being indigenous as well, I would like to suggest you use correct historical data about its culture in the EU IV. In Europa Universalis III, Bosnia was placed under 'Serbian' cultural sphere, which is historically inaccurate. I'd like to see this changed in the coming release, and considering it was already accepted by the devs of Magna Mundi (the game), I don't see a big problem in including such change by the team behind EU IV

I hope the devs will read this and consider my suggestion.

Thank you!

DanubianCossak · Nov 22, 2012

The Kotromanić dynasty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotromanic The origins of this dynasty arent exactly known, if you go to the first ruler of the dynasty, Prijezda I, Ban of Bosnia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prijezda_I,_Ban_of_Bosnia , this is what it says: " He was probably the founder of the House of Kotromanić." But ok, lets assume he is correct about them being indigenous.

List of all Slavic cultures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

As you can see, there is nothing indigenous about the culture of Bosnian people in 1399 (or 14-whatever the start year of EU4 is). In the 14/15th century the south Slavic cultures were Croatian and Serbian (plus Bulgarian). There is no such thing as "Bosnian" culture. When it comes to languages, various Serbs living in various lands called themselves (and their languages) according to geography, so Serbs living in Montenegro (Crna Gora) called themselves "Montenegrins" / "Crnogorci". Similarly to that, Serbs living in Bosnia, associated themselves with region where they lived - Bosnia, and called themselves, as they do sometimes today, "Bosanci" or "Bosnjani" and so on. Furthermore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Serbs where it states: "According to 10th-century De Administrando Imperio, Serbs settled a part of present day Bosnia and Herzegovina during the rule of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (r. 610-641)" and so on. Conclusion: if you wanted to split cultures off, it could be done based on dialect. Based on the idea that there are some cultural differences (like between Hungarians and Serbs), its just silly.

Martellus. · Nov 23, 2012

I believe the culture today known as "Bosniak" was largely associated with the Turkish conquest of the area and the prompt conversion to Islam of the Slavic people. Thus, the area should possibly start as Serbian/Croatian, but over time should change to "Bosniak" as provinces change from Orthodox (really should be agnostic) to Sunni.

Ichabod · Nov 23, 2012

Martellus. said:
but over time should change to "Bosniak" as provinces change from Orthodox (really should be agnostic) to Sunni.

Do you mean "really should be Gnostic"?

Te. Kenzo · Nov 23, 2012

Martellus. said:
I believe the culture today known as "Bosniak" was largely associated with the Turkish conquest of the area and the prompt conversion to Islam of the Slavic people.

This is true, Bosnia is the middle of the cultural area that we can call "serb-croatian". Also today Bosnia is composed by Croatians and Serbs, with "Bosniaks" term utilized to refer to the Islam people of the area, that are called so, becouse Bosnia is the area where islam conversion was more strong, creating a differentiation. Actually in the game Serb culture can be used without problems to describe culturally the area.

unmerged(250188) · Nov 23, 2012

These threads always bring out the best in people...

Ichabod · Nov 23, 2012

Hey now... It's been completely polite so far.
If this discussion is destined to turn ugly, I don't see any reason to hurry it along with that kind of remark, Petrarch.

unmerged(250188) · Nov 23, 2012

Ichabod said:
Hey now... It's been completely polite so far.
If this discussion is destined to turn ugly, I don't see any reason to hurry it along with that kind of remark, Petrarch.

Hmm. Tell you what, if by page 3 everything is still civil, I owe you a coke.

Ichabod · Nov 23, 2012

My point wasn't about the future degree of civility, but about how there is no need for you to come in and try to aggravate those of us having a discussion.

Back to the topic, don't know Bosnian history well enough to comment on medieval Bosno-Serbian culture, but it's good to remember that culture in EU is a broad construct with one culture describing many regions and peoples. Self-governance isn't really enough to justify assigning a unique culture. Even though the Kotromanić ruled Bosnia, I would doubt there was enough of a distinction from the Serbians to justify a 'Bosnia' culture. Otherwise you might as well have a separate culture for each Russian principality - there was probably more difference between Novgorod, Moscow, and Pskov than between Sarajevo and Belgrade.

justin6477 · Nov 23, 2012

Actually, I think there IS an argument for balkanizing (sorry, but it's a completely appropriate term) the cultures. All of them. In D&T for EU3, there's now a division of Italy into cultures based on regional dialect/language. What this means is that we haven't seen Venice revolt out of Pisa or Genoa revolt out of Palermo since.

Cultural labels aren't like tags, they shouldn't slow down the game. Furthermore, an abundance of cultures within a cultural group makes the union even more important. So besides the tediousness of researching the various subcultures and their geographical limits, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be in game.

Ashantai · Nov 23, 2012

They do make gameplay somewhat unappealing though because of the same culture group penalties.

And how far would one go? Arguably you could break down the Scots, the English, the Irish and a dozen others. But what would the game and the player gain from that?

justin6477 · Nov 23, 2012

Ashantai said:
They do make gameplay somewhat unappealing though because of the same culture group penalties.

And how far would one go? Arguably you could break down the Scots, the English, the Irish and a dozen others. But what would the game and the player gain from that?

It wouldn't be any less appealing than the non-culture group penalties, and that never stopped anyone or the AI.

As for what areas should be divided, I'm fine with any and all answers to that question. Although I wouldn't divide the Irish, that'd be silly considering how few provinces Ireland has.

Ichabod · Nov 23, 2012

I think that's exactly his point.
You can make a case that no more than two provinces should ever be connected by a single culture, or that every province should have its own culture; but why would you? It's silly. Just like splitting up the Irish, Great Russians, or Serbs.

unmerged(25822) · Nov 23, 2012

In the same sense why not having Moldavian and Wallachian cultures ?
I have seen Bosniak culture in that big mod named MEIOU or something, it doesn't change anything so pretty much pointless .

Ashantai · Nov 23, 2012

Exactly. It either changes the game balance...which means its not desirable without a lot of work...or it does nothing, in which case it's just cosmetic!

Son1x · Nov 23, 2012

DanubianCossak said:
As you can see, there is nothing indigenous about the culture of Bosnian people in 1399 (or 14-whatever the start year of EU4 is). In the 14/15th century the south Slavic cultures were Croatian and Serbian (plus Bulgarian).

Slovenes were not Croatians or Serbians.

DanubianCossak · Nov 23, 2012

Son1x said:
Slovenes were not Croatians or Serbians.

You are correct, i completely forgot Slovenes...

DanubianCossak · Nov 23, 2012

Ichabod said:
Do you mean "really should be Gnostic"?

Martellus. said:
(really should be agnostic)

Although there were lots of heretics in Bosnia a few centuries before game start (but again in whole Europe that was the "thing" of the day, during the CK2 time frame), i dont think that any single province in 1399. / 1450whatever would be anything but (Serbian) Orthodox (interior and northern border with Hungary) and Catholic (Bihac region, that should also be Croatian cultured) and coastal area (that was traditionally Catholic).

Im not an expert on religious matters, but i did listen to history lessons, and from what i remember, this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveti_Sava , Saint Sava - Serbian prince who became priest and diplomatically negotiated autocephaly for Serbian Orthodox church (a monumental achievement for that time), also our saint patron of education etc, according to some historians spent part of his life actually chasing heretics in Bosnia, at which he was apparently quite successful (the whole burning at the stake thingy).

Ichabod · Nov 23, 2012

I completely agree completely DC. The Bogomils were past their prime and, anyway, they should get the same amount of coverage from Paradox games that the Zoroastrians or Anabaptists get -> 0% in EU.

I wasn't suggesting that the Balkans have gnostic representation, I was just trying to understand what Martellus was saying since it seemed like he must of made some kind of mistake by suggesting agnosticism... @_@

bosniandragon · Nov 23, 2012

First, let me introduce a few established facts about Bosnians (Bošnjani).

The document called "Povelja Kulina bana" written by ban Kulin in 1189 AD clearly shows that Bosnians existed as an indigenous people that lived in Bosnia. The document was written in 'Bosančica' or Bosnian alphabet, and it was a diplomatic note directed at the republic of Ragusa (Dubrovačka republika), where ban Kulin signs a trade treaty between Bosnia and Dubrovnik (Ragusa). He even starts the sentence with: "(transcription) U ime oca i s(i)na i s(ve)toga d(u)ha.
Ja ban' bos'n'ski Kulin' prisezaju tebЪ kneže Kr'vašu i v'sЪm' građam' Dubrov'čam' pravi prijatelj'biti vam'od'selЪ i do vЪka i pravi goj dr'žati s'vami pravu vЪeu dokolЪ s'm' živ."

Translation: "In the name of father, son and holy spirit, I, Bosnian ban Kulin, swear to you duke Krvaš and to all citizens of Dubrovnik, that I will be your friend forever, and that I will pursue justice and trust with you as long as I live."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Kulin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church

Now, how can one people with clearly its own Church, its own language, its own alphabet belong to a culture that is of their neighbors? Could Norwegians be named as Danes simply because they're sharing almost the same language? NO!

I can continue writing about the history of my people and country forever, but I'll stop for now with only one example: Queen Elizabeta Bosniaczka (Bošnjačka) which was married to a Polish ruler Ludwik Węgierski. If some of you know Polish, you can read more about her here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elżbieta_Bośniaczka

There is also somewhat simplified English page about the same topic.

Nevertheless, I do see a point (even if it is just a cosmetic one) in including Bosnian culture in the whole mix of Balkan cultures, simply because my people was a victim of genocide by Serb soldiers only but 17 years ago, feelings still strong here and no one in the Balkans hides that, especially not the Serbian politicians. It is very disturbing for me personally to see my people named as 'Serbs' in this game, because my people was killed in the name of conquering my homeland, exterminating my beloved Bosnians, and it didn't happen only once in the long history, but it also repeated quite recently. Playing with historical facts can be tricky, and the Balkans are prime example of tricky histories. But, I do have one simple question for some of you: How would you feel if your people was named after your neighbors who have shown their explicit and violent hatred towards your people during certain periods of time? Would some guys from Poland feel nice if Polish were named as Germans in Hearts of Iron? I believe not.

Still, I have no intentions on stirring conflict on the forums, I'm simply showing my views on this, and I hope paradox devs will my suggestion into account.

Culture spheres in Balkans

Bos

DaputinCozzak Specyal Snowflake

Major

Areopagite

Field Marshal

Banned

Areopagite

Banned

Areopagite

Field Marshal

Lost in Time

Field Marshal

Areopagite

Lt. General

Lost in Time

Sergeant

DaputinCozzak Specyal Snowflake

DaputinCozzak Specyal Snowflake

Areopagite

Bos