• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

maxirage

Lt. General
11 Badges
Apr 5, 2012
1.660
2.470
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I'm trying to play Ming effectively, but the inability to start wars is crippling. I thought I could get around it using warning and guarantees, but the minors are so scared by them they never declare war if you do that.

The only thing I can think of is using the Temple faction, but that requires a whopping 6 slider moves, taking up around 65 years! Plus that requires you to sacrifice westernization, which is horrible.

Did anyone find a decent way to play them, without becoming completely inferior to the western powers?
 
I'm trying to play Ming effectively, but the inability to start wars is crippling. I thought I could get around it using warning and guarantees, but the minors are so scared by them they never declare war if you do that.

The only thing I can think of is using the Temple faction, but that requires a whopping 6 slider moves, taking up around 65 years! Plus that requires you to sacrifice westernization, which is horrible.

Did anyone find a decent way to play them, without becoming completely inferior to the western powers?
I found Manchu > Ming to be the most doable.
First of all you're not boring sitting around as you're planning the inevitable fall of an empire, secondly, once you finally reunite China, you don't even have factions to worry about.
 
Use more peaceful means of expansion until you get a high military leader. You have plenty of money to throw at nations as well as some ability to farm prestige with horde wars to get SoI. Also, you can make use of the faction events and magistrates to promote the faction of your choice as long as they have *some* influence already. (If their monthly influence gain < 1 then forget it unless all 3 factions are that way). Early on it isn't too hard to flip between Temple and Bureaucrats with events and magistrates. Ruler stats are the primary determinant in which faction is in charge (1.5 to 4.5 influence vs -1.25 to 1.25 for each of the 2 sliders).

I personally find the occasional Ming game to be a nice change of pace as juggling the factions and dealing with the constraints is more challenging than world domination as a western power. Particularly in the early game when you are used to hyper-expanding. One thing to keep in mind is that each faction is affected by 2 sliders and a ruler stat so you don't necessarily have to sacrifice westernising to give the temple faction some modicum of power. You can also just ally some aggressive nations and ride them into wars although this will be harder on your infamy than you might be used to.

Eunuchs: favor free trade+naval ruler diplomacy
Temple: narrowminded+quantity ruler military
Bureucrats: aristocracy+serfdom ruler admin

As you can see, each faction favors at least one "bad" slider setting for a large land-based power so in the long run you are likely to see the slider influences converge as you optimise your settings.
 
Look in AAR Library for, Yin, Yang and the Ugly: a divine wing ming AAR. by KNUL.
and good luck.
 
I don't see how these strategies make Mng viable, considering that by the time you get to do something, even a 2PM like Holland could have expanded and to become bigger and stronger than you.
 
I don't see how these strategies make Mng viable, considering that by the time you get to do something, even a 2PM like Holland could have expanded and to become bigger and stronger than you.
That's the point of the factions. It's a non-European country that used to be viable. That was a problem. The factions fixed that.
 
Funny, but accurate.

Barring player action, Ming is supposed to do a whole lot of nothing until it breaks down. It's not supposed to absorb all of Asia without a player at the helm.
 
Funny, but accurate.

Barring player action, Ming is supposed to do a whole lot of nothing until it breaks down. It's not supposed to absorb all of Asia without a player at the helm.
Neither it is supposed to stagnant for centuries
 
since this is a thread about Ming, i thought i would ask here, if that's ok. I'm bordering oirat horde and to take over their provinces, it seems that i need to send colonists. Do i need to do this for other countries such as kazakh? It seem tedious to wait for eunuch faction to gain power for that.
 
since this is a thread about Ming, i thought i would ask here, if that's ok. I'm bordering oirat horde and to take over their provinces, it seems that i need to send colonists. Do i need to do this for other countries such as kazakh? It seem tedious to wait for eunuch faction to gain power for that.

Yes you do. As Ming, forget about colonizing the hordes. Until you westernize you're going to expand using diplo-vassalization and being called to war through alliances.
 
Alright, so it's possible to do SOME expansion as Ming.

Ming.png

The only question is how to find a European neighbour to westernize in a reasonable timeframe. You can't hire any explorers, and it's not like you can just march across the continent. It seems like you have to get lucky so they will find you, which makes me unhappy.
 
Funny, but accurate.

Barring player action, Ming is supposed to do a whole lot of nothing until it breaks down. It's not supposed to absorb all of Asia without a player at the helm.

Which was the historical situation, unless I'm very much mistaken. Absent the factions, or some other throttling mechanism a.i. Ming was a devastating juggernaut that overran central Asia (and sometimes more) much like a.i. Castille generally runs over N. Africa in the current patch.
 
The only question is how to find a European neighbour to westernize in a reasonable timeframe. You can't hire any explorers, and it's not like you can just march across the continent. It seems like you have to get lucky so they will find you, which makes me unhappy.

Find a way to get a border with Khorasan, which has Muslim tech group. Or wait until the 1500s, when the Europeans will find you.
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure that is exactly what it is supposed to be, for the most part.
And Byzantium was,but in this game you can makek them relieve the Roman empire.Then we need a faction system for Byzantines so they can lose even with player :D
 
Well I'm doing a Ming AAR in 5.1 and have found it easy enough to expand, up to 1720 and hold N India, most of SE Asia and part of N Mexico.

I used alliances and guarentees a lot, that triggered a decent supply of call to arms. Work on the sliders to make them neutral (ie not favour any faction) and then your Emperors will tilt you between the 3 factions with some regularity. You can't use Knul's old idea (from 5.0) of grabbing Republic early on, but even so I've managed a good balance of colonising, wars and building.
 
Byzantium has its own special throttling mechanism. It's called "being a 2PM that's both outside the Empire and directly in the path of the Ottomans."

Ming, without the faction system, is (for lack of a better word) unbalanced. It's unbalanced in the sense that its power creates a dynamic in East Asia that the designers consider detrimental to the game.
 
Which was the historical situation, unless I'm very much mistaken. Absent the factions, or some other throttling mechanism a.i. Ming was a devastating juggernaut that overran central Asia (and sometimes more) much like a.i. Castille generally runs over N. Africa in the current patch.
You're very much mistaken. Ming did, or tried to do, a ton of stuff right at the beginning of the period - in the 1399-1425 period. Then it went downhill. In EU3, it's the opposite: they can't do anything at the start of the game, but once they've got the magical "sliders" into position they can kind of sort of play, although still in terms of raw power the average OPM in the HRE leaves them in the dust. Start the game, make your first slider change, leave the computer on while you have lunch, come back and make your next slider change. Secondly it's the opposite of history in the sense that in real life, early Ming had the political will to expand, but it's armies and navies proved incapable of holding their conquests (armies), or too expensive to be practical in the long term (navies). That has the potential for game play that's both fun and historically accurate, with interesting choices - imagine if you could build Zheng He's fleet, but have to consider will the rewards be worth the cost? But instead of that, with that HUGE opportunity for mixing historical accuracy and interesting game play, Paradox put a ton of resources into making a mini-game that's the opposite of both.

If you study Ming's ahistorical expansion in versions of EU3 prior to Divine Wind, it shows a lot of flaws with the way Paradox models countries, and particularly Asia. For example, there's a general issue with EU3 that making your country bigger makes it not just more powerful but more stable, even in the 1400's. Now Paradox spent a lot of effort making Ming unplayable, I mean, sorry, not technically unplayable, just mind-numbingly excruciatingly boring to play and totally uncompetitive in multi-player. They could have spent that time adding game systems that dealt with the fundamental issues - why does our model make a huge country in the 1400's extremely stable? maybe we should give huge countries, especially huge countries with low government tech, stability issues: not just Ming, but any huge country. That would also make the game more fun for all of the single-player players, who normally just quit half way through the game because it gets so completely unchallenging as your country gets larger.

Paradox, and their supporters, keep saying that Ming conquering all Asia is the problem. Then you actually study the problem yourself, and notice that almost all of SE Asia (still) starts the game without forts in their provinces. Surprise, surprise, Ming quickly expands across SE Asia. Yes, just fixing the forts wouldn't solve the entire problem by itself, although it does slow down AI Ming some (mostly because they lose troops to attrition while sieging forts in "tropical" provinces with huge armies :eek:hmy:). But fixing this is the obvious first step to fixing the bigger problem, and there are more steps like it. (Maybe all of Mongolia should have more nomads than the Crimea? Maybe we should revisit East Asian cultures and see whether China+Manchuria+Korea+Japan are actually as culturally homogenous as Sweden, Norway, and Denmark?) If you can't be bothered to fix it, if you can't be bothered to pay enough attention to the vanilla EU3 setup in east Asia to notice it, you have no business saying "this huge anti-fun anti-historical accuracy code is the only way to stop AI Ming from expanding ahistorically."