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Thread: The Sword of Islam - Dev Diary 1

  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07 View Post
    Personally, I don't like the ledger. It's good at showing you long lists of pretenders or of province incomes, but for titles I think the information is too complex to be shown in a textual description. The reason people "under-use" it is that it is cumbersome to use, has a nasty tendency to crash the game, and is terrible at visualizing data. I'd rather look at a map of province income, than use the ledger, if I want to find out what the rich provinces in my kingdom are.
    I really only ever use the ledger for the religion and independent states tabs. Also, the direct vassals tab is occasionally useful, as sometimes I don't notice a vassal turn heretic until he converts counts under him.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by s1234567890m View Post
    would break multiplayer and bug fixing to do that
    Ok I just hate how some people would try find loophole around this just to be spiteful.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by s1234567890m View Post
    would break multiplayer and bug fixing to do that
    Uhm, no, it wouldn't? At least not necessarily.

    Just split the mechanics in two: Low-level game mechanics needed to synchronise the gameplay between machines in MP go into the executable directly; additional program parts which are only needed for the UI changes ("How do I deal with multiple wives?" or "Muslim-specific ledger pages" as an example) as well as mechanics which don't need to be synchronised (triggers for events which can only apply to Muslim player characters, for example) go into a separate (potentially cryptographically signed by Paradox) DLL file, which is part of the expansion.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akjosch View Post
    Uhm, no, it wouldn't? At least not necessarily.

    Just split the mechanics in two: Low-level game mechanics needed to synchronise the gameplay between machines in MP go into the executable directly; additional program parts which are only needed for the UI changes ("How do I deal with multiple wives?" or "Muslim-specific ledger pages" as an example) as well as mechanics which don't need to be synchronised (triggers for events which can only apply to Muslim player characters, for example) go into a separate (potentially cryptographically signed by Paradox) DLL file, which is part of the expansion.
    I still dont see how this is helps bug finding/fixing?
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  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by s1234567890m View Post
    I still dont see how this is helps bug finding/fixing?
    It doesn't help (though it could make it easier, since smaller components mean easier bug finding too), but it doesn't hinder it either and is a way to get additional mechanics to buyers of the expansions without them being in the main executable.

    For a fictional example, let's assume in the upcoming Pagan Expansion, the lunar phase becomes important for religious purposes. The expansion gets a DLL which adds a "current lunar phase" display element to the UI, and which adds a bunch of triggers which fire off at full moon, at new moon and during a lunar eclipse. People with the expansion get to use those, people without have just the AI use generic triggers instead of the lunar-based ones - which isn't as precise, but doesn't matter either, since they aren't getting to see the lunar phase in the first place, nor is it important for them.

    In a multiplayer game, the guys with the expansion get to run the expansion-specific triggers; if no-one has it, everyone just uses the generic random ones.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Akjosch View Post
    It doesn't help (though it could make it easier, since smaller components mean easier bug finding too), but it doesn't hinder it either and is a way to get additional mechanics to buyers of the expansions without them being in the main executable.

    For a fictional example, let's assume in the upcoming Pagan Expansion, the lunar phase becomes important for religious purposes. The expansion gets a DLL which adds a "current lunar phase" display element to the UI, and which adds a bunch of triggers which fire off at full moon, at new moon and during a lunar eclipse. People with the expansion get to use those, people without have just the AI use generic triggers instead of the lunar-based ones - which isn't as precise, but doesn't matter either, since they aren't getting to see the lunar phase in the first place, nor is it important for them.

    In a multiplayer game, the guys with the expansion get to run the expansion-specific triggers; if no-one has it, everyone just uses the generic random ones.
    Aww I see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akjosch View Post
    It doesn't help (though it could make it easier, since smaller components mean easier bug finding too), but it doesn't hinder it either and is a way to get additional mechanics to buyers of the expansions without them being in the main executable.

    For a fictional example, let's assume in the upcoming Pagan Expansion, the lunar phase becomes important for religious purposes. The expansion gets a DLL which adds a "current lunar phase" display element to the UI, and which adds a bunch of triggers which fire off at full moon, at new moon and during a lunar eclipse. People with the expansion get to use those, people without have just the AI use generic triggers instead of the lunar-based ones - which isn't as precise, but doesn't matter either, since they aren't getting to see the lunar phase in the first place, nor is it important for them.

    In a multiplayer game, the guys with the expansion get to run the expansion-specific triggers; if no-one has it, everyone just uses the generic random ones.
    I think the devs specifically said they do not want to have to do bugfixing for MP games where players have different versions, regardless of what exactly the differences would be. Because it's just sooo much more work. Even if as you say they try to split the game mechanics into (somehow) interaction-relevant parts and interaction-irrelevant parts, odds are they WILL overlook some tiny little details, which end up causing crashes or de-syncs under some combination of CK2 versions.

    The only way to really avoid crashes, and to ensure any sort of quality in software development, is to have well-defined test scenarios for your software, that cover all of the ways a user could use your software. You never fully cover all of it, but it is important to cover as much of it as possible. If you allow users to run MP matches with different versions of your software, you must logically also design test scenarios that cover this specific application. I.e. say you have two versions, CK2addon and CK2vanilla. Any test for the single player part of the game now needs to be maintained and checked for both versions of the game. You double the testing effort, because you must maintain both versions of the game bug-free at all times.

    But in MP games, where one player must be host, and the others clients, your test effort does not just double: MP games involve by definition interaction between users of the same software, and it is crucial that your tests cover all relevant ways in which they interact. As part of your test scenarios, you not just one host/client setup that covers as much of MP mechanisms as possible, but four different host/client combinations: CK2addon/CK2addon, CK2addon/CK2client, CK2client/CK2addon and CK2client/CK2client. And this is just if you want to do MP tests with just two players. If you want to also test it with three players, and if matters if the clients have different versions too, the testing effort increases eightfold. And so on.

    In short, the effort to keep up good quality increases enormously. Paradox has, with the release of Sengoku and CK2, apparently adopted a new Q&A philosophy, and I suspect their DLC policy is part of that philosophy: They want to do much more quality control than in earlier games, but the price of that is that testing their software must become easier than it was with EU3 or the other, non DLC games. They now make this easier by designing their games in such a way, that even though players can have different DLCs installed, 100% of their actually installed software on their users' machines is the same, at all times.

    On a sidenote... this also means, that all hackers need to do to turn a patched but non-DLC version into a DLC version, is to circumvent the disabling mechanism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07 View Post
    Also it would be problematic if you think about this from a history perspective: Why should the "emperor" titles be so exclusive?
    They shouldn't necessarily. But other than the HRE or ERE (we could also argue about Bulgarian and Serbian empires that were actually recognised by the Byzantines but those wouldn't be made into empires in the game for reasons of relative size), empires would not have the benefit of being 'de iure', which literally means 'of right' or 'by law', which is also the fixed meaning of this phrase in diplomacy, law, politics, history. Fictional states don't fit here.

    Empire of Scandinavia or Francia in CK2 is like a de iure United States of Europe (or South America) in Victoria or Hearts of Iron would be.

    IMHO somebody is simply mixing in EU3 stuff (creatable Scandinavia, ability to form an empire out of any country large enough) into CK2, while departing from the original concepts.

    You mention Charlemagne later. He basically either created Western Roman Empire, which was dormant (standard de iure conditions) or got the title (whether de iure or titular) through an event, depending on which interpretation you choose. The future Basileus would have a strong claim on it (just like in CK2 you can have claims on states that don't exist at the moment). The de iure empire being Western Roman Empire, not Francia or France or anything.

    Lastly, even if you want to fight the HRE emperor, and you want to be the #1 empire, why would a military victory over the HRE dissolve his empire? Since the consituent kingdoms of the HRE and ERE (Germany, Italy, Greece, etc) cannot be created by the sitting emperor himself, losing the confrontation with the challenger wannabe Emperor of Britain or Spain would insta-implode all his power. Without the imperial title, he is no longer liege of the dukes, and unless (low chance) he somehow created the kingdom crowns before losing this war, he loses all his rule and reverts to a simple duke or count. This is drastic, waaaaaay too drastic in my opinion. It also makes no sense from an alternate history point of view: So the emperor of Britain has sailed over to Germany, has defeated the HRE emperor in battle, forces from him a concession that the Emperor of Britain is now the supreme monarch of Latin Christendom. Why would this dissolve the HRE ??? The British Emperor sets sail and goes home to Britain, but the German emperor is still the lord of Germany. The dukes still owe fealty to him. Why should this be dissolved.
    In the situation you describe, historically that'd basically mean the British Emperor replacing the previous Holy Roman Emperor as the Holy Roman Emperor. The previous Holy Roman Emperor would retain his imperial dignity, now subordinate to the British Emperor's headship or stay independent but without wielding influence out of Germany. His title would need to change. Basically, whoever became the supreme monarch of the Latin Christendom would be the Holy Roman Emperor (Kingdom of Germany notwithstanding as irrelevant to the point).

    As for not railroading new empires into confrontation with the HRE/ERE, some kind of opinion modifiers with diplomatic options to get rid of them peacefully could be a way.
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  9. #809
    Paradox will release new music dlcs together with the Sword of Islam DLC, hurray!

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomdark View Post
    First off, we thought the southwest corner of the map looked a bit dull, so we added a bunch of new provinces down there, representing the flourishing civilizations of the Manden people; Ghana, Mali and Songhay. The area comes with historical rulers (of course) and a new West African culture group. The region is rich but hard to reach.
    Sounds interesting. I am curious where you found sources for this, as the sources I've read say things like "Songhai seems to have gained its independence from Mali sometime in the 14th century."

  11. #811
    An established rule, principle axiomtk's Avatar
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    I dont have time to read 41 pages but after reading this dev I cant believe they didnt add the Ottoman Empire.

    The Arabian Empire (which actually never excisted) is already in the game as the Caliphate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate So I dont see the reason to achieve an Arabian Empire in the game. It would be more exciting if the Ottoman Empire could be created. I know they are already in the game as a kingdom but this could be explored more in depth with this expansion/patch. I cant see why the devs wont jump into this and still leave this blank in the expansion. The only thing that differs are the icons and playable nations.

    If I were given the choice on how and what to create in this expansion I would definetly add the Ottoman Empire because it would offer more dimension and dynamisn to the area. I like the new empires such as Spain and Russia but the Ottoman plays a more crucial role in history during that time (and in that region). I'm not nationalistic here or critisizing other nations or gloryfing the Ottomans. I just want that content that should be in the expansion pack really be included. If it was do-able to create playable Muslims why wasn't this done in the first place? And if you can now why not deliver something more meaninful to this region but this is a different discussion

    Edit: Heck I'm going to open a new thread about this when writing the ideas are flowing..
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  12. #812
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    @axiomtk, i dont agree on your ottoman empire thigny. im not going to repeat my post on your thread.

    anyoen knows how late we can expect the second development diary?

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumphie View Post
    anyoen knows how late we can expect the second development diary?
    I assume, in 5-6 hours max.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by SaintEsteban View Post
    I really only ever use the ledger for the religion and independent states tabs. Also, the direct vassals tab is occasionally useful, as sometimes I don't notice a vassal turn heretic until he converts counts under him.
    I use the ledger but wish there was more useful information there (plus a full detailed history log), and that the coats of arms were links to the relevant rulers.

  15. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by axiomtk View Post
    I dont have time to read 41 pages but after reading this dev I cant believe they didnt add the Ottoman Empire.

    The Arabian Empire (which actually never excisted) is already in the game as the Caliphate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate So I dont see the reason to achieve an Arabian Empire in the game. It would be more exciting if the Ottoman Empire could be created. I know they are already in the game as a kingdom but this could be explored more in depth with this expansion/patch. I cant see why the devs wont jump into this and still leave this blank in the expansion. The only thing that differs are the icons and playable nations.

    If I were given the choice on how and what to create in this expansion I would definetly add the Ottoman Empire because it would offer more dimension and dynamisn to the area. I like the new empires such as Spain and Russia but the Ottoman plays a more crucial role in history during that time (and in that region). I'm not nationalistic here or critisizing other nations or gloryfing the Ottomans. I just want that content that should be in the expansion pack really be included. If it was do-able to create playable Muslims why wasn't this done in the first place? And if you can now why not deliver something more meaninful to this region but this is a different discussion

    Edit: Heck I'm going to open a new thread about this when writing the ideas are flowing..
    King = Sultan, while Caliph = Emperor.

    If you want to RP the house of Osman on its historical path, then it actually makes sense that these two are separate. First you become a powerful lord by raising yourself to the Sultan level, which just requires you to beat up on the Byzantines. But then to really become a supreme leader of the faithful, you also need to usurp or otherwise grab a Caliph title. Just like in real history (although a little after the game's time frame) when they seized Egypt and made Al-Muttawakil surrender the claim, as well as the sword and the mantle of the Prophet, to the Sultan Mehmet.

  16. #816
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    Or if the Byzantine Empire still doesnt have an allow ={ religion = orthodox } then the Ottoman Empire would just be when the turks conquer enough to usurp the ERE as happens in alot of games if you havent modding that from happening.


    Anyway, has there been any word on whether or not DLC stuff will be able to be activated for modded in religions?
    Last edited by Orinsul; 08-06-2012 at 12:37.
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  17. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    Or if the Byzantine Empire still doesnt have an allow ={ religion = orthodox } then the Ottoman Empire would just be when the turks conquer enough to usurp the ERE as happens in alot of games if you havent modding that from happening.


    Anyway, has there been any word on whether or not DLC stuff will be able to be activated for modded in religions?
    No word that I've seen but I'm doubtful. If the new islam features can be used by say, adding a "can_use_feature_a = yes" in the religion.txt, then nothing would stop you from making a copy-paste of muslims and renaming it muslim2 or something.

  18. #818
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    Well.....I'm more interested hearing about the MAC isue, and I'm crossing my fingers in hope that the upcoming patch is gonna solve that particular problem ;D

  19. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forseti View Post
    No word that I've seen but I'm doubtful. If the new islam features can be used by say, adding a "can_use_feature_a = yes" in the religion.txt, then nothing would stop you from making a copy-paste of muslims and renaming it muslim2 or something.
    It would seem to me that the line "can_use_feature_a = yes" would only be read by the game if you had the DLC activated, and if you didnt it would have no effect.
    You can in the files link to the CoA or Mongol DLC, but it doesnt have any effect unless the DLC is activated, why should this be any different?
    Circumventing the DLC wouldnt work and i cant see why everyone is obsessed with it as an obstacle. Either whatever religions/religion groups have the SoIDLC=yes line wouldnt be playable without the DLC or they would be playable but the DLC content would be locked out for them without the DLC activated. I would suspect the former.

    If the DLC content cant be used for modded religions then thats returning to how it was on the old engine in CKV where to mod in a religion you could only change the localisation of an existing religion and would mean only one religion group would ever be able to use the mechanics which wouldnt be very good.
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  20. #820
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