In my game, I killed Greater Fire Elementals and cleared the pocket dimension using three Donkey Cavalry and a Shaman (get it from random lair exploration). Donkey Cavalry is awesome! Too bad it is not upgrade-able.
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Stubborn Knights are alright and I'll build them if I take a town that can train them, but I go for the Trading Post when I have the choice. They have the same hit points and resistances as Veterans, but they're a little faster and hit about half again as hard. Unfortunately, they aren't powerful enough to justify their upkeep cost (6 gold, 4 food), but the main reason I don't use them much is because you could build a trading post on Donkeys instead that gives +10 gold. In a gold producing Human town that's completed all the gold-multiplying structures (you can have the trading post and all the gold buildings up at size 8) the trading post itself adds 42.5 gold per turn. You can support an awful lot of Human units on that kind of income, or just buy more upgrades. The advantages of the Stubborn Knights over Veterans don't really justify passing on a Trading Post. Later on, when temple units are on the field, the ability to build Stubborn Knights doesn't really help you since they're outclassed and don't bring anything unique to the table, while more gold from a Trading Post is useful the whole game.
Even if you just build them early on before Tier 2 units are commonplace, the upkeep squashes an early game economy before you have more than just a few of them.
Even if you just build them early on before Tier 2 units are commonplace, the upkeep squashes an early game economy before you have more than just a few of them.
I started a game where where an AI was within 15ish squares of my capital. My first expansion had access to the donkey resource and I am building D Calv like there is no tomorrow. That early in the game, I don't have anything else that can compete as a single building requirement unit.
Because of their upkeep, I will probably stop at three surviving Donkey's though.
Because of their upkeep, I will probably stop at three surviving Donkey's though.
In that case it makes sense to build them, since it gets you an easy AI kill. I'd probably build two or three, then abandon the town and resettle it with a Trading Post so you can afford the upkeep on them without completely stunting your gold economy.
That's an interesting thought- that city will probably be size 5 or 6 by the time the AI is dead. And it has my harbor. Hmmm...
Well, you don't have to wait until the AI is dead, just until the Knights are done building. If you build three of them, it should finish the turn after it hits size 4. Later in the game, it'll hit size 11 at about the same time it would have hit size 12 if you let it grow. I'd definitely scrap it and resettle once the third Knight is out of the gate.
Nice read, but you forgot to explain why gold has no practical limit and food does.
I think he means that when you have a surplus in gold, you can always spend it on upgrades or new units, while a surplus in food doesn't give you any advantage comparable to a surplus in gold.
Surplus food is converted to gold. But I do not know the extend and exchange ration.
I think it's 50 %. So having surplus in food isn't rewarding at all when you can have surplus gold instead.
This. Humans can train lower level units, particularly Rogues, and upgrade them to Assassins quite easily. You can pretty much blow through as much gold as you want in very little time by doing this.
Also correct. While Monsters are generally better at producing Food than Humans are, it's not by all that much. They get the same building multipliers that Humans do; their advantage is from the Pub and Fishing Village, which produce five food each and are limited to one per town. I've found that Humans can cover their food needs pretty easily by building Magic Farms on any Magic Fields that you find, which also produces a ton of mana. Even with Agrela's +75% Food production spell and the non-deity +50% Food production spell stacked on a single city, the excess Food production in a size 10 city when converted to Gold is still only about 2/3 as much as you'd get from a Human city producing Gold with no spells or special terrain features.
I recently had a game played as Monsters where I saw how you can use food as a kind of gold. The ratio is 2 food = 1 gold. So food producing buildings are 1/2 the value of gold producing buildings, which makes them a fairly inefficient way to produce gold; but there is an exception - when you play monsters and have food boosting city enchantments those food buildings are now competitive or even better than the straight gold producing building even at the 2 for 1 exchange rate.
In some earlier posts in other threads I advocated humans getting a buff for some units and/or getting a new unit, but I no longer support that after having played humans some more; what I found is that the game is more than just the units, and while humans have mostly sub par units they have a better economy than monsters (haven't played undead much but wasn't too impressed the couple times I tried), and their units fit well into that economy. Having to build a separate building for hunters isn't a problem because I just use catapults instead, and they work well with warriors. Rogues are too squishy for my tastes, but since most of your cities will be able to produce them you can spam them as a quick but non sustainable boost to an attack, or to raise a quick group for defense against A after having already sent your army after B (setting them in defensive mode in a city compensates for their weak defense while their strong attack helps soften up the sieging units for the town's ballista).
I only play on small and medium maps with a lot of opponents so I never get to explore the human advantages with temple units, but they don't need to go deep into a game to hold their own because their economy is so good that it makes up for their mostly sub-par units (and of course they have the best silver upgrade [and arguably the best resource upgrades in general]).
In some earlier posts in other threads I advocated humans getting a buff for some units and/or getting a new unit, but I no longer support that after having played humans some more; what I found is that the game is more than just the units, and while humans have mostly sub par units they have a better economy than monsters (haven't played undead much but wasn't too impressed the couple times I tried), and their units fit well into that economy. Having to build a separate building for hunters isn't a problem because I just use catapults instead, and they work well with warriors. Rogues are too squishy for my tastes, but since most of your cities will be able to produce them you can spam them as a quick but non sustainable boost to an attack, or to raise a quick group for defense against A after having already sent your army after B (setting them in defensive mode in a city compensates for their weak defense while their strong attack helps soften up the sieging units for the town's ballista).
I only play on small and medium maps with a lot of opponents so I never get to explore the human advantages with temple units, but they don't need to go deep into a game to hold their own because their economy is so good that it makes up for their mostly sub-par units (and of course they have the best silver upgrade [and arguably the best resource upgrades in general]).
No, they aren't. See my post just above yours. Still, I'll run the numbers again. Assuming size 10 cities:
Monster city has Granary (+50%), Mill (+75%), Great Granary (+100%), Harvest Blessing (+50%), and Fertility (+75%). The Fertility spell is specific to Agrela. They have a Pub, a Fishing Village, and five Farms, plus two more Food from the Castle. Base Food production is 27, and after all the buildings and spells are factored in (+350%) that increases to 121.5 Food. Divide by two to convert to Gold, and you have 60.75 base Gold income. Subtract Gold upkeep cost of your Food generating buildings (and add +2 for the Castle) and you end up with 49.75 Gold from the size 10 Monster city. This also requires three turns worth of spellcasting and -3 Mana to sustain. Every size increase beyond 10 lets you add another Farm, which increases your gold production by 6.75.
Human city has Tax Offices (+50%), Bank (+75%), Mint (+100%), and Treasury House (+100%). I don't know of any spells to increase gold income. They also have a Marketplace, Rogues Guild, and three Craftsmen Districts. Base gold production is 17, and after the buildings are factored in (+325%) you are producing 72.25 gold from the size 10 Human city. You also have a Farm to start with and the Castle adding 5 Food together, for another 2.5 gold on top of that, for a total of 74.75 gold. Every size increase beyond 10 lets you add another Craftsmen District, which increases your gold production by 12.75. No spellcasting or Mana upkeep necessary.
Final scoreboard: Humans making gold will outproduce Monsters making Food to convert to gold by 74.75 to 49.75, assuming a best case scenario for Monsters that requires a specific deity to even get that close. When comparing larger city sizes, Humans pull ahead even further, adding more gold production at nearly double the rate that Monsters do. Even a Monster town that has two pigs or a Cheese Cavern will still produce less gold than a Human city with no special resources. Comparing a Monster town making Food to a monster town making gold is closer, but gold still pulls ahead, producing 67.25 gold at a size 10 city.
Human gold production cities and Monster gold production cities are identical until you get to a size 7 city. Beyond that point, the Humans pull ahead and each Craftsmen District you build (starting at size 8) nets the Humans a 3 gold advantage over their Monster counterparts. This is not a big enough advantage to offset the lack of powerful units like Trolls and Vampires by itself. It takes temple units.
While the Humans are better at producing gold, Monsters are better at producing Food than Humans are at producing gold, relative to the upkeep requirements of their forces. Humans usually pay about twice as much in gold upkeep as they do in Food and Monsters are the opposite. A size 10 Human town producing 74.5 gold is a bigger source of cash than the Monsters could make, but a size 10 Monster town producing 121.5 Food can sustain a greater number of Monster units than a Human town can sustain in Human units. The notable Human advantage is in gold economy, but comparing each race's ability to sustain an army as a whole it's a lot closer.
The Human silver upgrade is very good. It increases the damage output of your Warriors by 2.25 per turn, your Rogues by 2 per turn, and your Hunters by 1.75 per turn. On the other hand, Monsters can get the Blessing of Hill'o'Win at a pumpkin patch while Humans get nothing, which allows their units to regenerate 3 hit points per turn, and they can get +35 Elemental/Death resistance from silver. Humans get the better silver upgrade in my opinion, but overall their resource upgrades aren't noticeably better than what Monsters get.
Hill o Win is nice but I find it a bit pricey to apply and 3 point regen is not so special in the mid - late game. When I was talking about monster use of food as an alternative to gold I was not considering the Treasury House; I did not mean to imply that monster can use food to compete with human gold production, I was just saying that monster can get good or even better gold benefit by using food production than gold production i.e. I mean competitive with the monster alternatives, not competitive with the human options.
And this is all for bare cities; most cities will have some resource or another and you certainly would not want to go against the grain so to speak.
And this is all for bare cities; most cities will have some resource or another and you certainly would not want to go against the grain so to speak.
You're still better off going with gold production to get gold even when playing as Monsters. As I mentioned above, "Comparing a Monster town making Food to a Monster town making gold is closer, but gold still pulls ahead, producing 67.25 gold at a size 10 city." A Monster gold city produces about 35% more gold than a Monster Food city, even with the deity-specific buff on the Food town. Even a Monster city that has two Pigs on it is still only going to produce 63.25 gold at size 10. I'd say to take advantage of those Food resources and build as many Food towns as you need, since that's a big part of your upkeep as Monsters, but don't ever plan to build Food as a replacement for gold. It's just less effective, even when you take map resources into account.
It's pretty much the best melee unit (that is also very mobile), until tier 3 troops arrive.
Anyway, you don't really need more then 1 donkey resource for them. Others can safely go to trading posts.
Trolls can stomp them without much trouble, and can get Pathfinding for their very first level up. They're alright, but I'll take the extra money in almost all cases. Upkeep on Stubborn Knights is probably higher than it ought to be, although their initial cost is a bargain.
Ok, I may be wrong about monsters using food as a substitute for gold, but also keep in mind that I only play small maps so few of my cities reach size 10 before the game is over. In most cases it is mute because you tend to adapt cities to follow whatever resource is around.
As for the Stubborn Knights discussion I agree that for humans their upkeep is too high, I really prefer Halberdiers; but for monsters I like them because the food part is less of a strain and the fact that they have no upgrade to elite isn't a problem because I only play on small maps. Stubborn Knights have the same upkeep as Minotaurs and similar stats; they trade damage and HPs for armor, but I prefer to use the Labyrinths for the perk rather than the unit (so if I have a town with both a labyrinth and Donkeys or Halberhall I will use the Labyrinth for the perk and the other tile for unit production).
As for the Stubborn Knights discussion I agree that for humans their upkeep is too high, I really prefer Halberdiers; but for monsters I like them because the food part is less of a strain and the fact that they have no upgrade to elite isn't a problem because I only play on small maps. Stubborn Knights have the same upkeep as Minotaurs and similar stats; they trade damage and HPs for armor, but I prefer to use the Labyrinths for the perk rather than the unit (so if I have a town with both a labyrinth and Donkeys or Halberhall I will use the Labyrinth for the perk and the other tile for unit production).
Sure, but we are talking about using them with human faction. Right?