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Thread: Looking for someone knowledgeable in Spanish politics/history

  1. #41
    First Lieutenant Straczynski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viden View Post
    And like Italian and British fascism. I repeat again: Why Mosley and Mussolini and no the Falange?
    1. Benito and (arguably) Mosley had socialist pasts. The Falangists didn't.
    2. The Falange WAS right-wing. It was an anti-communist and anti-anarchist, corporativist and pro-Catholic group. The fact that it incorporated syndicalist (not in the KR sense of "syndicalism") elements, accomodated trade unions on its structure and was originally somewhat anti-capitalist doesn't make it left-wing.
    3. We don't have to make every single RL fascist group into KR Totalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viden View Post
    BTW, National-Syndicalism is a left-wing ideology in KR. Just check Italy.
    KR's National-Syndicalism is more-or-less just the Italian term for Totalism (that is, Bolshevism, socialism-in-one-country, totalitarian socialism, etc.). RL's National-Syndicalism, in the sense as it was used by the Falange, is a right-wing nationalist ideology inspired by both syndicalism (again, NOT in the KR sense of the term) and fascism.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barón Rojo View Post
    All we know that it never was left-wing, its model was the italian fascism, it never toke part in any leftist action, all their relations were with reactionaries, Calvo Sotelo, the plotters of the 1936 coup, etc.
    Perhaps the fact that anarchists and socialists regularly murdered Falangists has something to do with this.

    Aside that Fascism was only a model and since the merging with the JONS, that model lost most of it's influence.
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  3. #43
    First Lieutenant Straczynski's Avatar
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    Anyway, as I said, since we won't ever agree wether they were right or left-wing, I favour keeping the Falange as a minor faction in the KoS or the Carlists, with a chance for a coup eventually.

  4. #44
    Kurt's Best AAR Reader Viden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barón Rojo View Post
    All we know that it never was left-wing, its model was the italian fascism, it never toke part in any leftist action, all their relations were with reactionaries, Calvo Sotelo, the plotters of the 1936 coup, etc.
    Perhaps the fact that anarchists and socialists regularly murdered Falangists has something to do with this.

    Aside that Fascism was only a model and since the merging with the JONS, that model lost most of it's influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    1. Benito and (arguably) Mosley had socialist pasts. The Falangists didn't.
    Read the previous posts: Mosley never had socialist parts. Mussolini reneged from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    2. The Falange WAS right-wing. It was an anti-communist and anti-anarchist, corporativist and pro-Catholic group. The fact that it incorporated syndicalist (not in the KR sense of "syndicalism") elements, accomodated trade unions on its structure and was originally somewhat anti-capitalist doesn't make it left-wing.
    I repeat: read the previous posts: pro-Catholic? The strict separation of Church and State is far from being pro Catholic. The defense of th Church in a context were assaults to churches and destruction of their properties was too common is far away from being pro Catholic. About being anti-anarchist and anti-communist... They only spoke about Marxism. And at least the JONS were the only one "fascist" group that recognized that traditional left wing ideology had some advantages, putting them in a better position than the capitalistic democracies (Obviously, monarchy was at the bottom of the scale).

    BTW, anarchism is anticommunist and communism is antianarchist. That's not an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    3. We don't have to make every single RL fascist group into KR Totalists.
    The point is that Falange fits perfectly in that role. Specially the JONS. Moreover, if you read the previous posts, you will see that the proposition is that the Spanish Totalist faction should be a mix of the Falange, the JONS, the Spanish Communist Party and the Workers Party of Marxist Unification.

    And be honest, seeing Primo de Rivera together with Dolores Ibárruri is simply awesome, just like Mosley and Blair:

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    KR's National-Syndicalism is more-or-less just the Italian term for Totalism (that is, Bolshevism, socialism-in-one-country, totalitarian socialism, etc.). RL's National-Syndicalism, in the sense as it was used by the Falange, is a right-wing nationalist ideology inspired by both syndicalism (again, NOT in the KR sense of the term) and fascism.
    Fascism is mostly a nationalistic version of Sorel's Revolutionary Syndicalism.

    And, again, we don't have to use OTL Falange ideology.

    PS: Mussolini was always a fierce nationalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    Anyway, as I said, since we won't ever agree wether they were right or left-wing, I favour keeping the Falange as a minor faction in the KoS or the Carlists, with a chance for a coup eventually.
    That's exactly the same that having the Bolsheviks as a minor faction in the Russian Empire... Or having an Imperial Faction in Republican China with chance to become an Empire.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viden View Post
    That's exactly the same that having the Bolsheviks as a minor faction in the Russian Empire... Or having an Imperial Faction in Republican China with chance to become an Empire.

    Don't ever repeat anything about "imperial faction in Rep. China". Ever. We've already had enough problems with that sentence. :P

    Anyway, regarding the Falange... Yeah, you have nice points there. However, it's simply too silly to have EVERY SINGLE right-wing uniformed group in Europe turning Totalist.

    Let's do this, why don't we forget the names "Falange" and "JONS", as they are way too much marked as right-wing terms? Then we could add prominent early falangistas and jonsistas into the CNT-FAI, while also distributing the later, less-comitted trade unionists and all, into KoS and Carlists?

  6. #46
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    If you have to have falangistas and jonsistas, have them in the KoS, but don't made the bloody mistake of putting them with the Carlists or my eyes will bleed.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post

    Don't ever repeat anything about "imperial faction in Rep. China". Ever. We've already had enough problems with that sentence. :P
    Do you think that wasn't planned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    Anyway, regarding the Falange... Yeah, you have nice points there. However, it's simply too silly to have EVERY SINGLE right-wing uniformed group in Europe turning Totalist.
    We haven't. The Nazis aren't Totalists and the same goes for Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Greece, Romania, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    Let's do this, why don't we forget the names "Falange" and "JONS", as they are way too much marked as right-wing terms? Then we could add prominent early falangistas and jonsistas into the CNT-FAI, while also distributing the later, less-comitted trade unionists and all, into KoS and Carlists?
    That was the point from the start. The ideas was only to take the most left-wingers to the syndies whilst having the other in KoS (Never in the Carlists).
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  8. #48
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    Alright, I think that's settled then.

    So can the focus go back to the CNT-FAI (yes I am going to ask we change the name to something else) factions?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    Alright, I think that's settled then.

    So can the focus go back to the CNT-FAI (yes I am going to ask we change the name to something else) factions?
    Perhaps the first thing should be choosing the new name? Anyway, I proposed four factions: Regionalists, Socialrevolutionaries, Anarcosyndicalists and Nationalcommunists. The names are provisional.
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  10. #50
    Second Lieutenant RainbowFire's Avatar
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    Again, no factions should be named Communist.

    National-Syndicalists ST
    Social-Revolutionaries LE
    (Regionalist is really bland) Unionist? LWR
    Anarcho-Syndicalists LWR

    Is this okej?
    Last edited by RainbowFire; 19-07-2011 at 12:24.
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  11. #51
    First Lieutenant Straczynski's Avatar
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    "Autonomist" or "Federalist" fits better than "Unionist" or "Regionalist", imho. As for a new name for the CNT-FAI, maybe a neutral-ish "Spanish Republic"?

  12. #52
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    Hm, what's Autonomist in Spanish? If there is something then I'm all for it.

    There have been enough name suggestions Strac, I'll make a thread for voting on our forum in a bit.
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  13. #53
    Kurt's Best AAR Reader Viden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    Again, no factions should be named Communist.

    National-Syndicalists ST
    Social-Revolutionaries LE
    (Regionalist is really bland) Unionist? LWR
    Anarcho-Syndicalists LWR

    Is this okej?
    No...

    First, I want to avoid National-Syndicalist simply because you assigned that name to Italian Totalists. Second, Social-Revolutionaries should be LWR like Italian Social- Reformists. Third, Unionist is exactly the opposite of the Regionalists, name which I chose because "Regionalismo" is the Spanish equivalent to Autonomism. Fourth, Anarcho-Syndicalists should be LE, just like French and Italian counterparts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straczynski View Post
    "Autonomist" or "Federalist" fits better than "Unionist" or "Regionalist", imho. As for a new name for the CNT-FAI, maybe a neutral-ish "Spanish Republic"?
    Autonomist in Spanish is "Regionalista", Regionalist in English.

    The name shouldn't be that neutral. It must show that it's a name of a revolutionary left-wing State.

    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    Hm, what's Autonomist in Spanish? If there is something then I'm all for it.

    There have been enough name suggestions Strac, I'll make a thread for voting on our forum in a bit.
    Link please.

    Autonomism in Spanish means the same as Regionalism: "Regionalismo".
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  14. #54
    Second Lieutenant RainbowFire's Avatar
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    I'm not going to bicker about the names, but some definitions of Union are not inherently anti-Regionalist. I didn't bother to check the ideologies of the the French and Italian Anarcho-Syndicalists, sorry. And there is no need to repeat yourself about the Regionalismo, I think we all saw it the first time. :P

    Anyway,
    ??? ST
    Anarcho-Syndicalists LE
    Social-Revolutionaries LWR
    Regionalismos LWR
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    Anyway,
    ??? ST
    Anarcho-Syndicalists LE
    Social-Revolutionaries LWR
    Regionalismos LWR
    Yes, now we need to find the Totalist name and the State's name.

    PS: Federalists could be another good name for Regionalists. I only fear that they could be confused with British Federalists.
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  16. #56
    Second Lieutenant RainbowFire's Avatar
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    The names you proposed are related to Iberia and while currently the CNT-FAI can get in a war with Portugal (and cores) that will be changed so we need Spanish related names. How about the Commune of Spain or the Socialist Republic of Spain?

    EDIT: I know OTL the FAI was supposed to be Iberian and not Spanish, but I want KR's Spanish Syndies to only claim the title of Spain, not Iberia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    The names you proposed are related to Iberia and while currently the CNT-FAI can get in a war with Portugal (and cores) that will be changed so we need Spanish related names. How about the Commune of Spain or the Socialist Republic of Spain?

    EDIT: I know OTL the FAI was supposed to be Iberian and not Spanish, but I want KR's Spanish Syndies to only claim the title of Spain, not Iberia.
    You will erase all chances of unifying the Peninsula? A sad movement indeed.
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  18. #58
    Second Lieutenant RainbowFire's Avatar
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    I don't see the point of an outright Spanish Iberian state as it seems little more then chauvinism. However, the Spanish will certainly be able to support the Leftists in Portugal, with an outcome of a Syndicalist Portugal. I don't want to cloud the thread with a fairly minor thing, anymore ideas for the ST faction's name?
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowFire View Post
    I don't see the point of an outright Spanish Iberian state as it seems little more then chauvinism. However, the Spanish will certainly be able to support the Leftists in Portugal, with an outcome of a Syndicalist Portugal. I don't want to cloud the thread with a fairly minor thing, anymore ideas for the ST faction's name?
    The point is that that it wouldn't be a Spanish State. I liked the idea of Britain reconquering Ireland, Centroamérica unifying Central America and Spain doing the same with Iberia in proxy wars prior (or during) WW2. Bu that's another topic.
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  20. #60
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    Proletarians? Or Union of proletarians.

    BTW, I don't know if a regionalist faction should be included when they will be basically Catalans and few more. I think that people like Lluis Companys should be included in the social-revolutionary faction.
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