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Lovely, lovely, lovely is all I can say. Though, it's too much for the game I think. Probably even in an expansion it's not gonna be enough, sadly.
Exactly my thoughts.

While interface changes were mostly achievable (and I still hope that at least the most basic of them will get implemented), massive changes to technology etc. are sth that probably won't be implemented neither in a patch nor an expansion. That's an unfortunate truth. Although to be honest, I would like PI to focus on making everything working properly and enhancing the AI rather than wasting time on implementing new, buggy features.
 
Realistically, even if Paradox would see this system as a must i doubt they would implement it any sooner than in HoI4. I would like to see bugs fixed, but i rather paradox to attempt changing the things that are (in my opinion) wrong and failing. That would mean that there at least tying.
 
HEARTS OF IRON- My Conclusions and Suggestions - INTELLIGENCE

HEARTS OF IRON- MY CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS

0. Introduction

Reaction to my technology thread was a disaster. I first thought that it was because of the weekend (I did get less replies on during the interface thread), or because a moderator merged two of my threads many people did not re-check my thread cause they didn’t know that I had already posted it.
Then I thought it was simply too long, but I made a shorter version of my original post (3 times shorter overall) and highlighted the essential part so that anyone could read 3 lines and know the concept of my technology system. Outcome? A single response in a week… Then I tried again, super short version (couple of sentences) and I got two…


Regardless what the reaction will be on this thread I will probably all the suggestions I planned, but it will determine how fast I will post them. It will probably be far shorter than of the previous threads.
I decided on the spot to make and post the normal and shorter version so…


ATTENTIONE: If you don’t have time read the shorter version (or part of it) below.






INTELLIGENCE


The intelligence often decided the fate of battle, however it is almost completely absent in HoI. You can acquire data about industry capacity, resources, or names of some enemy units. However this data is irrelevant and the mentioned combat aspect of intel does not exist at all. I want to change this and I want to make it a key element of combat. The intelligence will be a part of my “Command Center” concept.


1. Command center

It the concept I came up with would complicate combat, making it much more dramatic and at the same time provide feedback (guiding the player) so that the additional data would not make the game actually harder.

The command center would accumulate many important information about combat (e.g. from reports) and so on, but it’s main function would be making plans of invasions operations and so on.
The idea is to add the element of a “brilliant plan” into the game (as much as its possible). Some could be based on historical ones (not only ones actually realized but also proposed) as well as custom based on “Detailed province value system”. My proposition is to add special bonuses to plans above some value of quality. This would however require a general with enough skill and possibly specific attributes, accurate intelligence data (encrypting, decrypting, quality of intelligence), high quality of effective doctrines (you can’t build a brilliant plan on falls assumption of an ineffective doctrine), specific unit types (e.g. tanks).
Those plans would be prepared in advance (especially before e.g. new war, theatre etc.). It could (obviously) evolve as the over time, but the earlier it would be prepared the better chances are of succeeding (more time to prepare = better plan). Those plans could be intercepted by the enemy. It would also allow for deception, the player would prepare decoy plans and sometimes try to make the enemy get a hold of them (probability).The game would always be aware with plan is real and taking into account all affecting factors would determine if he gets the correct or falls.

It would also allow for more detailed planning of allied operations.

The question is, should plans be voluntary or mandatory? Even without the plans the intelligence system is pretty solid. However it could pose some potential problems especially with oversea invasions (e.g. island warfare). A possible compromise would be setting mandatory plans for majors or something along those lines.

1.1 Plan B

Now it is obvious that even the best plan won’t go exactly how the author intended it to be, because of the many variables that are involved and often requires luck to execute. A solution for this problem would be giving the player some freedom (of place, time- the operation would have a dead line) in execution, of course too much and he\she\it (AI) losses bonuses associated with the plan (those would not include or be very limited considering strategic goals). Of course making exceptions (assuming that it’s the best occurs of action) from the plan would cause penalties itself.


2. Detailed province values system

Is a concept with would allow to estimate exact value of every province under a large number of factors. It would help the player and AI to determine the point of attack and defense and those factors would be:

Natural:
-terrain value would be dependent on the type of operation.
-weather would include prognosis and seasons.

Tactical:
-strength of forces on the opposite side would also be an important factor. The weak spot would be the most logical point of attack, but destroying a large concentration would be much more decisive.
-element of surprise (or its lack) did determine the fate of many operations. It would depend on the opponent’s perception of a certain area as a potential point of attack (not necessarily an invaluable province).
-fortifications, less fortifications = better.

Strategic:
-operational cost would be especially important when considering sea invasions.
-supply depots could serve as an aid for a strained logistic system and allow for the army to operate for free.
-airfields are crucial for air support.
-ports allowed the attacking army to sustain momentum and were most important in therms of logistics.
-infrastructure would determine the suitability for attack and could suggest attack with cripple enemy logistics (e.g. trunk line).
-capital is the head of the country. It was often thought (and it often was that way) that a country can’t fight without it.
-industry is another way of crippling a country and an important strategic objective.
-resources, does it need an explanation?

The value of a province would be calculated for every single of those factors, for different profiles (strategic, tactical etc.) and as a total. The player would be able to customize factors he is interested in. Single province values would help to set immediate targets, however groups of provinces would help set long therm objectives for whole campaigns.


3. The front shift

The reason why enemy plans were often reveled was that preparations for operations were associated with massing forces. Basically if a shift on the front occurs and the intelligence is aware of that (with it almost always was) then the player will be informed about that as well as about possible areas of reassembly and possible objective.

How would the game register this? I would say at least 7% (probably it should be more, but I’m just caution) of frontline divisions shifted from one area to another and a 15% increase in the shift area. Those areas could be army group operational areas or corps (only for this purpose). I used percentage so that it would detect movement in smaller theatres. To reduce the amount of unnecessary massages the changes would not be noted if the massing force is too small to conduct an attack (e.g. less than 50% of strength at a given place). Similar to the plan, front shift could be used to deceive the enemy (including using decoy units).


4. Stance (perception)

Countries did often use different criteria for defining the area of the where the enemy will strike and where is the best place for them to attack (The best way to achieve strategic knock out). Some did see the strategic goals (or a particular one) and some would choose the tactical objective. Some tried to do that by e.g. destroying army (mobile warfare, attrition warfare etc.), covering most ground (industry, resources etc.) and capturing capital. All of this depended on how they perceived warfare.

For example the French did exclude fortified area and terrain unsuitable for tanks as the possible place of main attack and assumed that the Germans will try to execute the Schlieffen plan. The Germans staged a fake attack right when the French expected it and reinforced their assumptions. This made them ignore signs with suggested that the attack was placed elsewhere.
Another example is the Russians in 1942. They were so sure that Germans will continue their assault on Moscow that they totally ignored intelligence information with suggested otherwise like the fact that it was in contrary to the idea of blitzkrieg (element of surprise). At Kursk they did the same thing, but this time the German did attack where they expected this and there were intel data with supported this.

Representing this would be very easy. Setting higher priority for preferred factor, however recreating their evolution in an elastic way would be much harder.

It would change the probability of an accurately interpreting data. Its purpose would be to deceive the player and AI and to introduce more unpredictability to the system.


5. Intelligence quality

The probability of accurate intelligence report would depend on the quality of intelligence (along with intel technology). It could be done just like now with leadership (without changes), or with a preset (adjustable) value of intelligence skill (with I would prefer). It would determine how probable noticing shifts, plans and correctly interpreting this data…

5.1 Data interpretation

…But also as I said earlier on how a country perceives warfare (probably also doctrine). This would determine with criteria would be discriminated in favor of others and this kind of processed data would be presented to the player (or AI).

5.2 Recommended course of action

Whenever the player would want to attack or the enemy would be suspected to prepare any operation. The player would be informed about a possible target with would be presented according to probability (with would be defined by perception, not actuality).

5.3 Reinforced delusion

Reinforced delusion is how I call my way of recreating countries leadership over optimism, ignorance and lack of critical thinking. It was often caused by previous experiences (prejudice) and was seen by many as correct at the time. Like in the French example (WWI experience) a staged attack in the anticipated location made them totally blind for every other signs and possibilities. It would be the extreme of misinterpreting data and would with the highest probability lead to incorrect conclusions.

To clarify, this is reinforced “delusions” with means that those conclusions were drawn under falls premise. If they would be assumed under correct (and full) information then it would be the most probable version.


6. Closing comment

The front shift in conjunction with the plans and “detailed province values” and so on would make a very good intelligence system and in my opinion add much more emotions and spice into the combat system. It would be also useful and the player would no longer be totally in the blue when he is attacked.

 
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HoI-M.S.A.C- SHORT VERSION!

HEARTS OF IRON- MY CONCLUSIONS AND SUGGESTIONS

0. Introduction

Reaction to my technology thread was a disaster. I first thought that it was because of the weekend (I did get less replies on during the interface thread), or because a moderator merged two of my threads many people did not re-check my thread cause they didn’t know that I had already posted it.
Then I thought it was simply too long, but I made a shorter version of my original post (3 times shorter overall) and highlighted the essential part so that anyone could read 3 lines and know the concept of my technology system. Outcome? A single response in a week… Then I tried again, super short version (couple of sentences) and I got two…


Regardless what the reaction will be on this thread I will probably all the suggestions I planned, but it will determine how fast I will post them. It will probably be far shorter than of the previous threads.
I decided on the spot to make and post the normal and shorter version so…





INTELIGENCE – SHORT VERSION

The intelligence is almost completely absent in HoI. You can some pretty much irrelevant and didn’t take any part in combat. I want to change this.


1. Command center

It the concept I came up with would complicate combat, making it much more dramatic and at the same time provide feedback (guiding the player) so that the additional data would not make the game actually harder.

It would accumulate important information about combat (e.g. from reports) and so on, but it’s main function would be making plans of invasions operations and so on.
The idea add the element of a “brilliant plan” into the game (as much as its possible). Some could be historical, some made up, some created by the player. If a plan would be good enough the player would get a bonus (it would require a skillful general, accurate intelligence and effective doctrine etc.) They would be a part of the intelligence system. Prepared in advance (especially before e.g. new war, theatre etc.). It would of course evolve as the over time, however they could be intercepted by the enemy (also as fake plans- deception). Those plans would obviously have some freedom of execution and especially strategic objectives would be much more loss, too much and the player losses bonuses.



2. Detailed province values system

Is a concept with would allow to estimate exact value of every province under a large number of factors. It would help the player and AI to determine the point of attack and defense and those factors would be:

-terrain, weather, strength, element of surprise, fortifications, operational cost, supply depots, airfields, ports, infrastructure, resources, industry, capital.

The value of a province would be calculated for every single of those factors, for different profiles (strategic, tactical etc.) and as a total. The player would be able to customize factors he is interested in.


3. The front shift

The reason why enemy plans were often reveled was that preparations for operations were associated with massing forces. Basically if a shift on the front occurs and the intelligence is aware of that (with it almost always was) then the player will be informed about that as well as about possible areas of reassembly and possible objective. The front shift (just like plan) could be used for deception.


4. Stance (perception)

Countries did discriminate some criteria in favor of others when defining the area of potential strike. Some tried to do that by e.g. destroying army (mobile warfare, attrition warfare etc.), covering most ground (industry, resources etc.) and capturing capital. All of this depended on how they perceived warfare.


5. Intelligence quality

The probability of accurate intelligence report would depend on the quality of intelligence (along with intel technology), as well as on how the data is interpreted (stance).

5.1 Recommended course of action

Whenever the player would want to attack or the enemy would be suspected to prepare any operation. The player would be informed about a possible target with would be presented according to probability (with would be defined by perception, not actuality).


6. Closing comment

The front shift in conjunction with the plans and “detailed province values” and so on would make a very good intelligence system and in my opinion add much more emotions and spice into the combat system. It would be also useful and the player would no longer be totally in the blue when he is attacked.

 
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I can't see any such system being implemented in HOI game unless its series' concepts changed drastically. HOI games are all about "unrestricted" movement, manoeuvres and operations. It's presumed that "plans" are developed beforehand in player's head.

Personally, I have much more modest expectations regarding Intelligence. I think that it's absent from HOI3, too. However, I think that adding pretty simple features would make it more useful.

Firstly, it shouldn't be possible to get information from "outside" sources. Currently you can look up the value of National Unity in Diplomacy screen, so what's the point of including it in the Intelligence screen? Also, moving one airwing over enemy provinces shouldn't reveal all information about enemy units and provinces. Problems like that are pretty common in HOI3.

Secondly, Intelligence tab needs to be redesigned interface-wise and provided information should be integrated into the game in a better way. If you use Military Espionage, then you know how painful it is to get any info out of it. Also, it seems that it isn't the same information you actually get on the map, which should be changed ASAP. If I "see" a given unit in the Intelligence tab, then it should be visible (even in form of a question mark) on the map, too (and vice versa). This alone would make intelligence more useful and relevant. I want overview info about enemy forces, too, HOI2-style ("Our spies estimate that the enemy has (...)").

Thirdly, Strength map mode should be remade. Currently it's absolutely, totally useless. Colour-coded info should stay, but the map mode should also show approximate number of enemy divisions in a given province, HOI2-style. Besides, I think that more detailed info should be given in form of tooltips, viewable when hovering the mouse button over a given province. The info available should be the one we get in Intelligence tab. In order to make intelligence even more important, I think that it should be possible to get enemy unit composition, too (Int tab and tooltips).

My next point is the issue of Espionage missions. Some of them are useless because it's not necessary to use them against the AI, e.g. Industrial, Technology or Political missions. AI always follows the same strategy, so why bother with such things? Therefore, it's an AI issue. Moreover, PI should make coups actually possible to perform - currently it's a half-implemented feature. HPP did a good job with this, so it's possible. This should make political missions actually useful. Additionally, "Disrupt Production" missions should actually disrupt production, not unit "repair" rate... We also need "Nuclear Sabotage" mission back, too.

Lastly, considering surprise effect - I think it can be achieved easily. All PI needs to do is to add a modifier to ingame "Surprise" combat bonus, which would be determined by comparing two given countries. Relevant factors would include number of spies and encryption and decryption technology.
 
I like the idea, but I don't think a system like that is actually achievable. You know how the AI can be. Personally I'd like to see it overhauled completely because it could really do wonders to how immersed you are in the game. It can't be as simple as you sending x amount of spies and then you making them do a certain mission.

Spies/Spy Rings

During world war 2, countries didn't send spies over who'd flit between finding out about the politics one day and the other trying to help partisans. Each agent would do particular job's. HOI needs to represent this by changing spies from covering all areas of a country to specific bits e.g. one representing the intelligence of the political situation, another the resistance, another military etc. I think there also has to be a move away from numbers of spies representing how good the intelligence is. You can send all the spies you want, it still doesn't mean you'll get good intelligence. Instead I think there should be a simple rating of how good a certain spy ring is. The first would be n/a for if there's no spy ring in place, next poor all the way up to excellent. This shouldn't really be to important, as I it should be up to the player to judge if it's good intelligence based on past reports. This would mean if the player focused on looking at the military of another country they should have a better chance of getting good information about the other countries military and only vague background information on politics or national unity.

To add realism, spy rings should be hard to set up i.e. You can invest in an area but it would probably take a long time to see any benefits. But once set up, they can be a gold mine of information. Also encryption technology and investment should affect the likelihood of the enemy discovering it. Then if it is discovered it should set the player back to square one.

Map

At the minute, intelligence has very little impact on the map. The only thing that has an effect is listening station. I'd love to see a system where Intelligence from both listening stations and spy rings shows up on the map in a dynamic way. Listening stations should be good at telling you roughly where a unit is, but spies should give you the extra details. What state of supply is it in?, Who's leading it?, Current Strength? All those things listening stations can't. To add to this, it would be great if we could see the name of the unit/ship/air wing. I know it's a tiny detail, but if you knew where the Bismarck was you'd at least give a go in bombing it. It would also give that extra level of immersion to the game.

Counter Intelligence

Currently all you can do is set your spies to find and disrupt other countries spying efforts. But imagine if it was possible to feed the enemy misinformation. Look at the preparations for D-Day. It's success was based on the fact the German's believed the main landing would be at Calais rather than Normandy. The allies created fake radio signals and reports through double agents to pull this off. I'm not sure this is fully achievable in the current game but I think an element could be. Why shouldn't the player be able to dummy divisions to fake a build up somewhere? There's should also be a way of feeding the enemy wrong information once you have broken up one of their spy rings.

I'm not trying to put your ideas down. I think this whole idea you have about reports is great. It could really add something to the game. I think the more ideas out there, the better game we'll get next time.
 
I can't see any such system being implemented in HOI game unless its series' concepts changed drastically. HOI games are all about "unrestricted" movement, manoeuvres and operations. It's presumed that "plans" are developed beforehand in player's head.

Making the intelligence system the way i like it could be hard, however plans almost completely solve this problem, because the exact data about the attack would be given by the player and if he (or she) would be lucky, then he (or she xD) would acquire this data. So it would serve a purpose.

Yes adding planning would be a change, but only under a few criteria (more detailed and would be made before a operation) and shielding with different concept IF the idea would be good is just arbitrary.
I also did not say they would be mandatory (I said that it maybe because it would make things far more simple), it would help planing the next move. Player would be encouraged by a possible bonus. Also making those plans would not take long and in my opinion it would add a huge dose of immersion.


Personally, I have much more modest expectations regarding Intelligence. I think that it's absent from HOI3, too. However, I think that adding pretty simple features would make it more useful.

I would welcome any improvement to the intelligence system, but this is what i would like it to be at the end. Plans would be pretty easy to make and the leap in quality of intelligence in HoI would be huge.


Firstly, it shouldn't be possible to get information from "outside" sources.

The amount of information that HoI provides now via espionage is pathetic (especially considering their usability).

moving one airwing over enemy provinces shouldn't reveal all information about enemy units and provinces. Problems like that are pretty common in HOI3.

Yes, but for the sake of the game in its present shape it is better to have this extremely cumbersome and almost cheat like tool then nothing.

Secondly, Intelligence tab needs to be redesigned interface-wise and provided information should be integrated into the game in a better way.

Thats true and the "our spies estimate" were far more useful, however also only in limited situations.

Thirdly, Strength map mode should be remade. Currently it's absolutely, totally useless.

I agree.

o show approximate number of enemy divisions in a given province, HOI2-style.

Also a good idea. I was thinking about how to display army strength and approximated enemy strength on the map and i even made a screenshot but it came out very untidy and chaotic (because i mad this on russian fronts and there were to many) so i didn't post it. But here it is, maybe you have some suggestions:




My next point is the issue of Espionage missions. Some of them are useless because it's not necessary to use them against the AI, e.g. Industrial, Technology or Political missions. AI always follows the same strategy, so why bother with such things? Therefore, it's an AI issue. Moreover, PI should make coups actually possible to perform.

Military espionage was far more important than any other types with are better represented in HoI. I don't know all that much about espionage during WWII, however excluding military espionage it seems that its effect was marginal. Coup mission? It should be possible so that this realm can be explored, but there were no successful (as far as i know as well as acclaimed by historians) coupe in with intelligence would be involved in WWII, so you can safely assume its very improbable.

Lastly, considering surprise effect - I think it can be achieved easily.

Yes, probably it could.


I like the idea, but I don't think a system like that is actually achievable. You know how the AI can be. Personally I'd like to see it overhauled completely because it could really do wonders to how immersed you are in the game. It can't be as simple as you sending x amount of spies and then you making them do a certain mission.

Yes but the "plans" would make this system almost completely irrelevant. The shift is just a simple algorithm dependent on how much units switched from one are of another. The detailed province value system would make it crystal clear where to attack (or defend). For example: a province has open terrain (5), no fortifications (3), good infrastructure (4), that means that it has a value of 12. I did not include all the factors, but basically the province with the highest number (along the front) would be the one to attack.Those factors would be of course modified by stance.





During world war 2, countries didn't send spies over who'd flit between finding out about the politics one day and the other trying to help partisans. Each agent would do particular job's. HOI needs to represent this by changing spies from covering all areas of a country to specific bits e.g. one representing the intelligence of the political situation, another the resistance, another military etc. I think there also has to be a move away from numbers of spies representing how good the intelligence is. You can send all the spies you want, it still doesn't mean you'll get good intelligence. Instead I think there should be a simple rating of how good a certain spy ring is. The first would be n/a for if there's no spy ring in place, next poor all the way up to excellent. This shouldn't really be to important, as I it should be up to the player to judge if it's good intelligence based on past reports. This would mean if the player focused on looking at the military of another country they should have a better chance of getting good information about the other countries military and only vague background information on politics or national unity.

Good idea. I generally like the fact that those spy rings would do many things at the same time automatically. Assigning them to a specific task would make them more effective, but before that they are at least doing something. I also like that it requires time to make and not magically you get a full (useless) spy net after a month of puring leadership into intel.


At the minute, intelligence has very little impact on the map. The only thing that has an effect is listening station. I'd love to see a system where Intelligence from both listening stations and spy rings shows up on the map in a dynamic way. Listening stations should be good at telling you roughly where a unit is, but spies should give you the extra details. What state of supply is it in?, Who's leading it?, Current Strength? All those things listening stations can't. To add to this, it would be great if we could see the name of the unit/ship/air wing. I know it's a tiny detail, but if you knew where the Bismarck was you'd at least give a go in bombing it. It would also give that extra level of immersion to the game.

Easy to implement and promotes immersion.


Currently all you can do is set your spies to find and disrupt other countries spying efforts. But imagine if it was possible to feed the enemy misinformation. Look at the preparations for D-Day. It's success was based on the fact the German's believed the main landing would be at Calais rather than Normandy. The allies created fake radio signals and reports through double agents to pull this off. I'm not sure this is fully achievable in the current game but I think an element could be. Why shouldn't the player be able to dummy divisions to fake a build up somewhere? There's should also be a way of feeding the enemy wrong information once you have broken up one of their spy rings.

Thats what my plans and front shifts are also designed to do.



PS: I forgot to mention about the information that the "Command center" would accumulate like e.g. production reports, doctrine informations, is another country attack, generals or officer ratio. I will ad them later today.
 
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